On the Importance of Clarity in our Reading (3)
/ Subject: Re: THE EARTH IS FLAT / 23Dec98 / Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy /
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> alan wrote: Gary, you wrote, "Many Christians know the Love of God and know that God is love."
> <much snippage> You claim God is Love and God Loves, I read 1 Chron 21:1, 7, where God smote
> Israel because David conducted a census in Israel. God wasn't pleased with this action and smote
> Israel. To me smote = punishment. I am having a very hard time trying to see how you can say that
> god loves and is love when he punished a whole nation, Israel, because of the actions of David.
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textman say: Dear alan, your difficulty is based on an unfortunate misunderstanding. You can understand that God's justice and love may sometimes be expressed through wrath and punishment, can you? It is something similar to the so-called 'tough-love'. If you can accept this much, then you are well on your way to a resolution ...
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The second source of confusion is that you apparently think that the sins of David, and the sins of the Nation, are two separate and distinct things. This is a fallacy that comes purely from modern notions of political responsibility and individuality; whereas in the ancient world everything was very much more percieved in social terms. As to the king, it was not so much "he and us" as "we and us". If you can accept the significance of all this, then your difficulties should be dispelled. ...
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If you require further clarification please don't hesitate to ask ...
"Why do you not recognize my speaking? ...
Because you are not able to hear my Word!"
(John 8:43 / Prophet Version)
/ Date > 25 Dec 1998 / Newsgroup > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy /
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> alan wrote: textman, your "explaination" did not address the issue the two verses presented.
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tx: Dear alan, it seems to me that it did.
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> I accept that the two verses mean what they say.
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So do I.
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> If you think gods word means something other than what it says, thats
> between you and god, not between me and you.
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I think the Word means exactly what it says, and I can't imagine where you should get the idea that I think it means something else.
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> WHAT DOES THE VERSE SAY?
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A satan rose up against Israel, and he enticed David into taking a census of Israel. ... This command displeased God, who began to punish Israel. Then David said to God, "I have sinned greatly in doing this thing. Take away your servant's guilt, for I have acted very foolishly." [1Chr 21:1,7,8]
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Seems clear enough to me. David "sinned greatly", and this displeased God, who therefore took action against the evil. . . . What's the big problem?
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> It is not an interest of mine what you would like it to mean.
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It's not an interest of mine either. ... Say there alan, dost thou know the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?
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> Where are you getting all these add ons?
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Biblical interpretation necessarily involves using the scriptures and history as spotlights we shine on the text in order to illuminate the meaning of difficult or obscure verses. Where do I get these add ons? I get them from Reality (ie. scripture and history). Check it out.
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> Why can't I have a bible that means what it says?
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You CAN have a Bible that means what it says. ... Your problem seems to be that you cannot consider any interpretation as valid unless it agrees with your own.
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> I have repeatedly asked you believers for one, and have rec'd only silence.
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I suspect that they are unable to take your request seriously.
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> Until you produce one I will use my bible
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Which version are you using? . . . Not all versions are created equal, you know!
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> and it will mean what it says,
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Yeah, but sometimes the meaning is not so plain & simple as you imply.
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> and not what you alter the text to mean.
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In what way have I altered the text? [see above]
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btw: David had no problem accepting the necessity and justice of God's actions. Can you accept the possibility that maybe David is wiser than you? Look what he says when faced with three unpleasant alternatives: Then David said to God: "I am in dire straits. But I prefer to fall into the hand of the LORD, whose mercy is very great, than into the hands of men." [1Chr 21:13]
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> alan wrote: textman, thank you for admitting that you place add on's to the verses.
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tx: Dear alan, I fear I may have misspoke myself. All I meant to admit was that the meaning of these (or any other) verses can only be discovered by placing them within their proper context. In this case the proper context is the surrounding passage and the history of ancient Israel. What you do is divorce two verses from the entire text, isolate them completely from everything, and then claim that the meaning is clear and simple.
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> Part of the problem here is that xians claim, "God is very clear in his word."
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Gary answered this far better than I can:
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:) Gary sayeth: "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard
:) to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures,
:) unto their own destruction" (2Peter 3:16). As you should see, from the above, this verse tells YOU two
:) things. First that your assertion that ALL Scriptures should be very clear and easy to understand, is not
:) true. Second, what you do here in this NG is to do what Peter says, i.e. you twist the Scriptures to your
:) own destruction. -- Sincerely, Gary
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> alan: So I look for the clarity, and insist then that the verse MUST mean exactly and only what it says.
> Now I am getting accused of insisting that the meaning is not so simple and clear as I imply.
> It is not me doing the implying.
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Okay. I do not imply it either. I'm saying flat out that God's Word is a dynamic and living spiritual power, and that the message offered to the individual Reader is not always simple and clear. Moreover, the Reader must receive the message in humility and thanksgiving. This is why only True Believers are fit to interpret the Scriptures. They are the only ones who can approach the text as God intends.
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> Everytime I follow the advice of a xian, then see a problem the advice is changed.
> I am told the bible is a perfect harmony of clarity of gods word.
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Neither I nor Gary would agree with this. We both understand that one must work hard at listening to the Word. If you have not patience and respect for the text, then I am not surprised that misunderstandings can and will arise. True Believers pray for the guidance and assistance of the Holy Spirit to help them wrestle with what Scripture is saying to them. Why do you suppose we do this, alan?
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> When I show something that isn't clear, I get new explainations,
> and on and on it goes until the name calling starts.
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Well, I hope we won't descend to that level ... :)
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> I am not the one claiming clarity in scripture, in fact I find NOTHING clear about the
> bibles teaching on salvation at all.
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I'll agree that it can be confusing for pagans ... And sometimes even for believers!
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> Every verse I am quoted disagrees with another. Even if I wanted to get saved,
> I wouldn't know what to do,
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Gary answered this also: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom 10:13).
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> without picking and choosing and ignoring. And you MUST DO THE SAME, but won't admit it.
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Actually, I do admit it. The Bible is an imperfect document, and therefore an imperfect revelation of God's will. This does not mean that we can simply dismiss it. It does mean that we should recognize that some books are more valuable and powerful than others. It depends entirely on where the particular Reader is at. The Lord speaks to the concrete situation of every Believer wheresoever they happen to be. A certain book may be necessary to one, but not to another. We are all at different stages along the journey, so we should not be surprised that God's Word says different things in different ways.
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> But back to the problem. 1Chr 21:1,7: "Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David
> to number Israel. And God was displeased with this thing: therefore he smote Israel." Your
> explaination of this was that David sinned greatly which displeased god, and god took care
> of the evil. Do you see how you changed it?
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No, I don't. Both the verse and my exegesis say the same thing. I derived the meaning of the verse from the passage as a whole, but you seem to think that this procedure is unlawful and ill-advised. Therefore you are the one who is acting against the clarity of the verses in question.
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> It says God was displeased with David taking a census in Israel, therefore he smote Israel.
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Right. David sinned, as he himself immediately admits, and God didn't like it, so he took action against the Satan-inspired evil ... As the text (ie. the whole passage) clearly states!
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> Imagine, my father was displeased with me, so he burns down my brothers house.
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The two situations are not at all comparable. David was the king of Israel. The problem, I think, is that you can't really appreciate what this means. The king is, in essence, the very personification of the nation. He and Israel are basically one and the same thing. His sins are automatically the sins of the nation also. It is this important detail that you are obviously unable to grasp or accept.
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> The problem is not that god took care of the evil as you changed it to, but of the
> injustice of punishing someone else for the actions of another.
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Here again you deliberately misunderstand the inner dynamics of the situation that David was in. In punishing Israel God WAS punishing David! You are projecting modern conceptions into the ancient world, where they most definitely do NOT belong. You have to understand what was happening in the terms of the participants, not in terms that you suppose must be applied. Put yourself in David's shoes, and the meaning of the passage as a whole will become clear to you. You're too fixated on two isolated verses, thinking you can understand them without reference to the story they are embedded in.
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> textman, I encounter this kind of deception from xians all the time. If you think "the Word" means
> exactly what it says then why did you change the meaning of the verse from Israel being punished
> for the actions of david to god taking care of evil. <snip remainder> -- ALAN
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I didn't change the plain meaning of the text. I was just saying the same thing in a different way. It's not a question of whether or not taking a census is evil. It's a question of how God and David saw the situation, and their assessments of the meaning of his actions. Again, read the whole passage carefully and you will see that I did not change the meaning in any way.
/ Subject: 'EVIL' spirits loosened....! / 16 Feb 1999 / Ng: alt.christnet.bible-thumpers /
> Author and bible critic planet <planet@iamerica.net> writes: Truely 'EVIL' God...!
> How evil is this Biblical Jehovah 'beast-god' anyway?
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textman answers: Actually, he's more like a Storm-God of Thunder and Lightning. Something like Set, Thor, Zeus, Crom, etc; only not nearly as puny and weak as those foul and false gods.
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> Well, he maintains a STABLE of evil spirits that do his bidding as in "Then God sent an
> EVIL spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt
> treacherously with Abimelech" (Judges 9:23);
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Dear planet, didst thou conveniently forget that these were times of war, and of rumors of wars? Did you perhaps overlook the fact that the Lord-God 'I-AM' is the Creator of all things? Did you forget that our God is a god of war and strife just as much as a God of love and peace?
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> and "But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an EVIL spirit from the
> Lord troubled him." (1 Samuel 16:14);
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Yes? And rightly so, for the Lord did not (and never does) depart without good reason. Why don't you give us the entire pericope, swino? Because then all of this might be made plain to your unfortunate Readers? ... Maybe?
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> and "And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord... And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith?
> And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a LYING spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said...
> GO forth, and DO so...behold, the Lord hath put a LYING spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and
> the Lord hath spoken EVIL concerning thee."(1Kings 22:21-23/2Chronicles 18:18-22).
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Again, not without reason; as the context (again) demonstrates. btw: And the name of this Lying Spirit is what again? ... The Father of Lies? The God of this World of Darkness & Death? Lucifer? Beelzebub? Satan? etc etc? Oh well, the Wicked One has many names; does it not? But whatever its appearances and manifestations (and they are Legion; as you say), one thing is certain: this awesome force of darkness and death can never be confused with our Lord of Glory, or with the Father of Lights. Might I then be so ungallant as to suggest that most of the confusion that exists lay in a certain planetary direction?
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> An verrrrry interesting revelation about God's evil spirits revolves around the Biblical statement
> that "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God...Hereby know
> ye the Spirit of God: EVERY spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh IS of God"
> (1 John 4:1-2). ... O.K. You got that? God's 'spirits' are the ones who "...confesseth Jesus Christ...".
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Sounds good to me, planet!
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> Strangely enough then, it turns out that the spirits that confess Jesus Christ in the Bible, are ALL
> unclean spirits and demons. Ergo, the unclean spirits and demons are therefore "...of God...".
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Wrong again, planet. Your logic is flawed owing to the fact that unclean spirits and demons have an edge on humankind in that they are able to recognize the Lord when they see him. This does not mean that they are "Of God" however. For True Believers also recognize the Lord when they see him. But consider their contrasting responses to this event: demons fear and hate and want to get far far away, while True Believers rejoice in the presence of their Savior, and want to remain with him forever. ... Nuff said!
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> Incredible as it might first appear to X'ians, the following sample verses ALL reveal unclean spirits and
> demons confessing Jesus Christ, thereby identifying themselves with being "...of God....". These multiple
> verses include "And the EVIL spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know...?"(Acts 19:15);
> and "...UNCLEAN spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son
> of God."(Mark 3:11); and "And there was in their synagogue a man with an UNCLEAN spirit; and he cried
> out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to
> destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." (Mark 1:23-24 and Luke 4:33-34).
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Yea, even the unclean spirits and demons themselves must confess the Truth, and speak the Word of Light & Life, when in the presence of the Holy One! Hallelujah! Not even the lying spirits themselves can withstand the glory of the Way, the Truth, and the Life (who is our Lord Jesus Christ, the Anointed One, the Son of Man, & King of Kings). Amen!
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> And some more samples include: "...immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an UNCLEAN
> spirit ... But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him... And cried with a loud voice, and
> said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? ... My name is Legion: for we
> are many." (Mark 5:2-9, and Matthew 8:28-29, and Luke 8:27-30).
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Hey planet, great quote! Might I therefore suggest (in the interests of honesty and integrity) that you forthwith change planet@iamerica.net to legion@iamerica.net at once forsooth ...?
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> God and his stable of 'evil' and 'unclean' spirits are all worshipped (On their KNEES too...!)
> by modern-day X'ians.....!
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Well, planet, this particular post-modern X'ian is not quite *that* impressed by post-modern demons and unclean spirits; but rather fights the Wicked One (and all her many legions of darkness, desolation, and death) mostly on my butt (as I need to be sitting in order to typing and editing and posting etc) ... :)
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> Now, don't THAT just beat anything!!!!!!!
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Oh yes, planet! Thou art very highly skilled at deconstructing the poor defenseless text. Of taking carefully selected statements and phrases from here or there or wherever, and collecting a nice bunch of denuded and disemboweled words, and making of them a nice, clean canvass upon which thou mayest paint whatever bizarre visions you see when you wake up screaming in the middle of the night ...
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Well done! Surely you are a professional scribe and sophist whose only mission is to lie and deceive (to the point of absurdity) using "evidence" from the Book of Truth to paint your sorry-assed pictures... But nobody who truly knows (i.e. loves) the Word of God can be long swayed by your barbaric hatchet-job hermeneutics. ... Ha! ...
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Hey planet. Still wanna talk about 'evil spirits loosened'? I have some very tangible evidence for you.
Just take a good look in the nearest mirror at the foul demon who I art now addressing.
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P.S. "Those who have a Why to live can bear with almost any How." -- Nietzsche [19C German anti-prophet]
/ Newsgroup > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy / Date > 5 Feb 1999 /
So never let it be said that the Smurfy Ones do not know their sacred scriptures. The key word here being *their* scriptures. For they do not love the whole Word of God; but only those passages and verses that are acceptable to their vanity and arrogance. Not surprisingly, these texts also give *some* support to their powder-puffed and perfumed version of the Faith. Here is a short list of the sort of things they suppose constitutes the essence and sum total of the Faith: Lk 19:10; Ephesians 4:29-32; 1Peter 3:15-16; Isaiah 40:31; Psalm 103; 1Peter 5:7; James 3:10-13; and so on. Now the epistle of Jude will certainly never appear in their sanitized and smurfyfied Holy Book; for nothing could be farther from their happy-happy kiss-kiss joy-joy mentality than the feeble rantings of the prophet Jude! Indeed, they would all of them be perfectly thrilled if all True Believers would quietly forget all about *that* "unchristian" (ie. un-smurfy) book. And that is indeed precisely the case today!
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Thus we often see quoted these verses: "All scripture is inspired by God, and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the child of God may be adequate, and equipped for every good work" (2Tim 3:16-17/PV). They quote these verses so as to demonstrate their "profound love and respect" for the Word of God. Oh, yes. But how often do we hear the following verses?: "So preach the Word! Be ready (in season *and* out of season) to reprove, rebuke, and exhort (with great patience and instruction). For there will come a time when they will not bear sound and healthy teaching, but will accumulate teachers (according to their own lusts) who will tickle their ears. And they will turn their ears away from the Truth, so as to chase after myths" (2Tim 4:2-4/PV). Is it not apparent to all that the Lord is referring to our own corrupt and unbelieving generation? No it is not! Because the leaders and teachers of the churches are utterly incapable of even recognizing sound teaching for what it is; even when it stares them in the face. Such is the quality of the faithless "faith" that these venomous vipers profess and teach!
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And so we have handed the Faith over to the care of these wolves in sheep's clothing. They never tire of urging everyone to "Judge NOT!", but they eagerly make haste to judge the prophet unworthy to speak, to quickly judge him a servant of Satan, to hurriedly condemn him for daring to object to their childish and absurd corruption and perversion of the Faith of all the Saints. And are these cowards (who fancy themselves warriors) willing to "reprove, rebuke, and exhort" as the scriptures say? Most certainly not! Yet they stand ever ready to insult and belittle those who dare to do as the Lord commands ...
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And so they welcome all manner of lying demons and distorted monsters; urging them to come into the church. They offer them lies based on the satanic notions of "unconditional love", mindless compassion, 'gender identity', infinite forgiveness, etc, etc. But they cannot tolerate anyone who loves the Truth! Nor those who fight for the Faith of the Apostles and Saints. ... Oh, the faith of the prophet is big enough to embrace both peacemakers and warriors; but the Smurfy Ones say "Peace" when there is no peace, and "Love" when they know not what the love of Christ means. Their Way is the way of Friendship with the World; for they believe that we can compromise with Satan, and lay down with evil, and soak our souls in depravity and iniquity, and *still* remain pleasing in the eyes of God! Yes, each and every generation of True Believers is beset by those antichrists and false teachers who would substitute the wisdom of the Wicked One for the truth and righteousness of the eternal Word of God.
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. . . But never more so than today!
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> On 15Mar99 eddiemayer wrote: What was God (or His Son) trying to prove masquerading
> as a poor carpenter's son?
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textman answers: Dear eddie, the Son of God became the Son of Man in order that God may know and understand and love us all the more! Amen! This was no masquerade, no farcical theater to amuse this "largely illiterate society". This was the real deal. The impossible made possible by the force of unbounded love alone!
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> It's so bizarre - the Creator of All Things held at bay by his own creation,
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Well, eddie, I reckon that it's all part of what it took to become one of us; to pitch his tent in this world and dwell among us. He emptied himself of glory, and power, and majesty, in order to speak directly to YOU eddiemayer ... Of life and truth and the way of salvation through love for God and all those around you (ie. to show you what it means to be a human being pleasing in the eyes of both God and Humanity).
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> and nailed to two pieces of wood by soldiers with helmets shaped like dicks. OHHHH!
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huh? Wut wuz dat? Did U just have a spasm or something? :)
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> And you can't go to Heaven unless you believe it's all true! What's the point?
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The point is that the Truth matters! The point is that the Faith of the saints and apostles is still alive and well after 2000 years of growth and decay and rebirth. The point is that the Kingdom of God continues to grow in glory and strength and devotion to the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lord's. The point is that *your* life matters, baby. Live it well!
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> If His purpose was to show there is a Spirit and a Resurrection, why are the men
> who crucified Him accused of the murder?
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All those who ignored, rejected, betrayed, tried, tortured, mocked, and killed him are guilty of their own evil deeds because they did them of their own accord (just as they continue to do today) ... Not because God forced them to it.
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> Something's deceptive about that. It's entrapment.
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No it isn't. Jesus did all he could to invite the lawbreakers and evildoers to repent and believe in the love and grace and forgiveness of the Heavenly Father. He tried and tried to invite them into the kingdom; but they were too busy with their own concerns. Too blinded by their own favored illusions and iniquities. ... Nothing has changed. The Son of Man is as sure to be crucified today as on any previous day. For the World hates the Light ... Because it so loves the Darkness.
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"And because wickedness is multiplied, the love of most people will grow cold.
But they who endure to the end will be saved." [Mt 24:12-13]
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> Public speakers know that if you want to communicate a message to your audience, you do it by speaking
> with their words, their language, and you do it more effectively by using clear, simple speech. Jesus said
> the truth is hid through parable. Deliberate, deceptive, rhetorical speech. Jesus stonewalled the Truth
> behind a farcical facade. Simple ideas can appear profound, even mysterious when shrouded with similes
> and metaphors, especially when it's unloaded in the face of a largely illiterate society.
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"Do not allow the kingdom of heaven to wither; for it is like a palm shoot whose fruit has poured down around it. It put forth leaves, and after they had sprouted they caused the pith to dry up. So it is also with the fruit which has grown from this single root: when it had been picked, fruit was borne by many. It (the root) was certainly good, and if it were possible to produce the new plants now, you would find it." [from The Apocryphon of James 7:23-26 / Mayotte, 'The Complete Jesus', p.39, 90-G]
/ Newsgroups > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.christnet.philosophy / Thread > Practical Commentary on Scripture /
/ Christian Forums > Congregation > Christian Communities > One Bread, One Body - Catholic / Date > 2 April 2012 / Topic >
] On 29March Unix say: Personal opinion wanted! Hi, wurm!
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cybrwurm say: Hey, Unix. How goes the battle?
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] U: I agree with You on a lot of things,
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cool :D
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] U: it's good that You are critical.
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Indeed it is, friend Unix. It is good, and it is also very very necessary ...
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] U: So I would like to ask You of opinion whether I should <snip>
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I'm not sure what you should do, because I'm not sure what the Lord would like you to do. However, I've found that the best path is usually the one that is straightest and shortest. Most college courses seem to be designed for dummies who like to take things slow and easy, and then stretch it out for a long time. It is indeed a waste of time and funds and books. But some RC colleges have extensive libraries that are truly magnificent. I spent many hours just browsing through the thousands of books all lined up nicely and just so. The web can't really substitute for actually having a ton of quality material-resources literally in yours hands, Unix.
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On the other hand, all the schools of the scribes and pharisees are committed to various sundry traditions that bind their wrists and eyes; and this effectively prevents them from seeing that their particular understanding of scripture is more or less flawed, outdated, obsolete, and/or not up to handling the truth. The sad fact is that the vast majority of believers are certain beyond measure that their particular view or vision of the bible is, of course, the only right one, and therefore the best. You can see this in almost everyone who posts here (and elsewhere).
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So it's those readers who don't post who concern me most. What are they thinking, Unix? Well, I don't know, but I do know that if you want to get at the more, shall we say, "reliable" facts and realities concerning the NT, you're far more likely to do this without the dubious "assistance" of many and heavy "mental-chains" ... if you take my meaning. Yes, to free your mind from distractions ... this is the one thing that really matters. This is the best-way to the-Way. This is the wisdom of the Buddha that Zen has not forgotten. A wise believer will respect the truth in the other great world religions; and even take notes too! :)
textman
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