/ Newsgroup > alt.religion.christianity / Date > 23 Aug 1999 /

  Now I do not claim to be a Bible scholar, as such; although it may certainly appear to many that this is what I am and do. But no. Instead I claim to be a prophet of the Word. Now in the 21st century post-modern era, this claim (this occupation) must seem ridiculous and absurd in the extreme. It is hardly something to be distinguished from claims to be the Messiah himself. Or to be Napoleon Bonaparte, for that matter. But this baseless and arrogant dismissal of the prophet basically stems from unbounded ignorance. The churches have long since done away with the prophets; such that few have since seen this mystical and magical creature of no fixed address. Indeed, most Christians today would laugh at the very idea that there could still be prophets among us even now. And this is most unfortunate for the People of God; for prophets have always been necessary to the moral and spiritual health and welfare of every generation of believers ...
.
 So what, then, are these fabulous creatures about? Well, if I may be allowed to oversimplify for a moment, I would say that the prophet is simply an ordinary believer who zealously practices the art of ruthless honesty, and the relentless pursuit of truth. That is as good a working definition as any you'll find elsewhere; but it also requires some clarification. I shall do this by illustrating the essential differences between a Christian Bible scholar and a prophet of the Word. Now while the former may indeed be a good and faithful believer, active in his (or her) church, and generous toward those in need, when the time comes to provide commentary on this or that biblical text, the scholar at once distances himself from the Faith (so as to assume a more rational and objective stance toward the scriptures in general).
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 But the prophet does not proceed in this way. Rather, a prophet is always mindful that his first duty is not to the world-wide communion of Bible scholars, nor to the church to which he belongs, nor even to some mythical ideal of sound and sober objectivity. No. The first duty of the prophet is to the Word itself; and not even his love for the People of God can be allowed to inhibit or deflect that primary responsibility.
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 In the same way, the prophet can never distance himself from the Faith so as to better view the text with the eyes of a faithless scientist. The prophet is not a scientist! But neither does this mean that he is irrational, or has no use for rational techniques and methodologies. On the contrary, the prophet must follow the scholars and scribes wheresoever they may lead; but then must go beyond their self-imposed limits, and the idiocy of their collective arrogance, to proclaim the Light and Life and Truth that are revealed in many and various ways through the pages of sacred Scripture; to the benefit of the People of God, and to the greater glory of the Lord of all creation ...

/ Newsgroup > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy / Date > 14 Sept 1999 /

 Dear Cyber-Saints, did y'all see that recent TV show called 'Road to Rapture'; narrated by the always unpredictable James Woods? It is a most interesting documentary; and true believers can gain much from a long and careful study of the information offered therein.  4X: The show makes it very apparent that the vast majority (if not all) of the popular apocalyptic scenarios passionately professed and unwaveringly adhered to are not only wrong, but very very *very* wrong! Why, one might even suspect that this was the main, or even sole, purpose of presenting 'Road to Rapture' to an ever-growing (and ever more excitable) audience of 'those interested in the fast-approaching End-Times'! Perhaps the good Mr. Woods might care to enlighten us on these matters?
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 In any case, one of the many things which I noted with some interest is the obvious confusion that exists among many believers regarding the Rapture that is spoken of by the apostle Paul. Is it before, during, or after the seven years of the great tribulation that are supposedly fast upon us (or coming soon)? The problem arises from the very sad and most unfortunate fact that the prophet John of Patmos nowhere makes mention of this wonderful event called the Rapture! Now this undeniable fact (ie. John's apparent ignorance of (or disinterest in?) the prophecies of the most famous and influential of all the early Christian prophets (ie. Paulos of Damascus; aka 'the Apostle to the Gentiles') is just the sort of thing that ought to set off alarms inside the (mostly fuzzy) heads of all Christians interested in these grave and important matters. ... Why so? ...
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 Well now, True Believers are certainly right to hold that the Holy Bible is one book, complete and unified. But they are very wrong in taking this to mean that we need not bother ourselves to appreciate the corresponding fact that the Bible is also a *library* of books; one having many parts or categories or types of books, all with their own unique features and characteristics. These many and various books simply cannot all be read in the same way, or treated the same way; as if their particularities have no real meaning or significance! Yet most literate Bible-reading Christians insist on approaching the Bible as if it were really nothing more complicated than a rather oversized novel (having a series of chapters whereby we have a story told from beginning to end with one overall plot presented in a logical progression).
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 Indeed, the canonical format of the scriptures is deliberately designed to foster this very false and misleading paradigm that the scriptures are forced to serve. But, in many ways, it is an artificial and unnatural arrangement that does great violence to the sacred texts, and leads to many and various misunderstandings, confusion, and (above all) abuse of the Word of God! Look here, one simply cannot go mixing and matching different prophets as if the fact that they were both inspired by the same Holy Spirit means that the very different and specific prophecies of these two great prophets were meant to be tossed together and mixed up in the same bowl (as if they were presenting ingredients for some apocalyptic tossed salad). This is most emphatically *NOT* the way to read the prophets! It doesn't work for the great Hebrew and Jewish prophets. And it certainly doesn't work for the early Christian prophets either.
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 So if you go ahead and proceed in your stubborn foolishness, so as to mix up Paul and John without any regard for the vital fact that these are two very different prophets speaking to two different generations of believers about different things, and speaking in different ways for different purposes ... then *of course* you're going to screw up royally! Paul was speaking to an entirely unique and very particular situation in the history of the early Greek churches. John's strange and deliberately unfathomable visions and prophecies have nothing to do with any of that!
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 So be a wise believer, and take my prophetic advice: If you wish to study Paul, fine! Only *do* restrict yourself to all of his authentic epistles. Please do NOT study John and the post-pauline epistles also (ie. not every letter proclaiming Paulos as the author is from him)! On the other hand, if you wish to study of the book of Revelation, well and good! You'll get no discouragement from me. Only be well aware that even the prophets have trouble reading that obscure and troublesome book. And please *do* forget Paul while you're at it! Believe me; both those guys offer more than enough materials to keep you busy for a lifetime.

P.S.   "Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence." -- George Bernard Shaw

/ Re: How To Study The Word / Forum: TheologyOnLine-BibleStudy / NG: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy / 15Oct99 /

> On 10Oct99 T.Matthew wrote: As to the aforementioned claims of being a "prophet", being a student
> of the prophetic, as well as one called to such, I simply commend to you Matthew 7:15-16 (or might as
> well as include through verse 23). I also recommend the book "Thus Saith The Lord?" by John Bevere
> to all who wish to learn more on the "prophet" or claim to operate in such a capacity.
.
 Tondaar say: Thus sayeth the Lord: "Watch out for false prophets" (Mt.7:15). ... Darn good advice; if you ask me. There are certainly far more false prophets running about the place than true prophets. So many, in fact, that few are able to recognize the latter for what they are. Thus we have T.Matthew here coming along and claiming to be a true prophet while at the same time insinuating that the cyber-prophet is a false one. What are his qualifications for this position, I wonder? My doubts about T.Matthew stem firstly from his agreement with that swino who calls himself 'Timothy2;15', and secondly from his quick and underhanded prejudgment that I am a false prophet.
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 Now this charge is certainly nothing that I haven't heard before. The one thing that all of my accusers have in common is that they never come right out and say exactly what it is that proves me to be a false prophet - perhaps the mere fact of claiming to be a prophet is sufficient evidence; but then how does this explain Matthew's own claim? - but rather prefer to make vague references about "By their fruit you will recognize them" (Mt.7:16 / NIV). Well, it seems to me that one of the good fruits that come from true prophets is a notable lack of reluctance to speak the truth, and to speak it plainly and straightforwardly (ie. without dissembling, and without the need to hide behind carefully chosen biblical verses)!
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 Thus sayeth the Lord: "They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves" (Mt.7:15 / NIV). ... Quite right! For false prophets make a point of seeming to be saints and holy men. Thus they are careful not to say too much, lest they inadvertently reveal themselves as something other than good sheep. As for myself, I do not practice such deceptions in any case; as I am not at all concerned about presenting myself to the People of God as a fabulous and wonderful saint or incredibly holy man beyond compare. Rather, my main concern is to do what the Lord has called me to do; and to do it to the best of my ability, and never mind what anybody may think of me personally.
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 Thus my ministry is NOT to "be a prophet". It is to bring the Word to true believers in such a way that the Light and Life and Truth therein is presented with unmistakable force and clarity. Frankly, I do not much care if people think me a prophet or not. That is not important. What is important is that people come to know and love the Word, and learn to read the scriptures with wisdom and understanding such that they are able to hear the Voice of the Lord therein clearly and without needless confusion and doubts.
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 4X: Our alleged prophet T.Matthew here rightly proposes Mt.7:15-23 as a guide to the believer's discernment of the prophets, and of those who claim to be prophets. But actually, the rest of chapter seven (v.24-29) are just as relevant to this end as v.15-23, if not more so. Thus the wise builder is the prophet who builds his teachings on the solid foundation of the Word of God, while the foolish builder is the false prophet who builds his teachings on other things (such as the endless multitude of doctrines, dogmas, and theologies of the various churches). So think about how all of this applies to the many postings that Fisherman and I have already exchanged: "... and the winds blew and beat against that house [ie. the House that Fundamentalism built], and it fell with a great crash" (Mt.7:27/NIV).
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 In the same way, it ought to be apparent that for all post-modern Christian prophets it is none other than Jesus himself who is the primary model and exemplar of what the true prophet [or as the biblical prophetic tradition puts it: "the slave of the Lord"] is and does: "... because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law" (Mt.7:29/NIV). ... And Do Fisherman and T.Matthew teach with the authority of the Lord, and after the manner of the great prophets of old? Or do they not rather teach as the scribes, teachers, and Pharisees? Please don't strain yourselves trying to answer these questions, for they are not at all difficult!
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 A little discernment goes a long way with the Lord ...

P.S. They who have ears, let them hear!

/ NG: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy / Forum: ChristWatch - Biblical Prophecy / 3Nov99 /

 Now when the LORD took up Elijah by a whirlwind into the heavens, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal, and Elijah said to Elisha, "I pray you, remain here, for the LORD has sent me to Bethel."
 "As the LORD lives," said Elisha, "and as you yourself are alive, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel. Then the members of the prophetic order who were at Bethel came out to Elisha and said to him, "Do you know that today the LORD is about to take away your master from being your leader?"
 "Yes, I know it; hold your peace," he said.
 Again Elijah said to him, "Elisha, remain here, I pray you, for the LORD has sent me to Jericho."
 "As the LORD lives and as you yourself are alive, I will not leave you," he said. So they entered Jericho; and the members of the prophetic order who were in Jericho approached Elisha and said to him, "Do you know that the LORD is about to take away your master from being your leader today?"
 "Yes, I know it. Hold your peace," he said.
 Elijah again said to him, "Remain here, I pray you, for the LORD has sent me to the Jordan."
 "As the LORD lives and as you yourself are alive, I will not leave you," he said. So the two of them went on. Now fifty men of the prophetic order went and stood opposite them at a distance, while they two stood by the Jordan. Then Elijah took his mantle and rolled it up and struck the waters; and they were divided on either side so that the two of them passed over on dry ground. Now as soon as they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you."
 "Let there be now a twofold share of your spirit upon me!" said Elisha.
 "You have asked a hard thing," he said, "still, if you see me as I am being taken from you, so shall it be with you; but if not, it shall not be so." - 2Kings 2:1-10 / Chicago Bible

 Is this passage important to the biblical prophetic tradition? If so: why? If not: why not?
Provide three reasons for your position.
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 What is the place of this account in the popular understanding of biblical prophecy (ie. what it is, its role and function, the relationship between OT and NT prophesy, etc)?
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 What is the meaning and significance of this text for post-modern believers wrestling with the somewhat troublesome books of the Holy Bible? How much authority and/or value ought Christians to place in this brief passage?
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 What is the message for all believers in this odd exchange between the two Hebrew prophets Elijah and Elisha? What does all this seemingly pointless journeying from one great city to the next, from one generation to the next, from one group of prophets to the next, mean as regards the significance of the prophetic tradition within the Word of God as a whole?
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 What can be learned from this pericope about the persistence and transmission of the prophetic tradition?

/ Ngz > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.religion.apologetics and alt.bible.prophecy / Forum > TOL - BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale V / Date > 17 Oct 2002 /

> On 13oct rapt wrote: All the big heads give themselves a prophet's licence! They're stoned on their
> own self-esteem, if not ganja too. The devil spews his temptation in the name of God, and snares
> the proud with the flattering lie that touts: "Get your free prophet's licence here! No experience
> necessary: just have faith in you faith". Gain immediate respect and honor of men with no more
> investment than to say "Im a prophet!"
.
 textman replies: Oh my! There are *SO* many things I disagree with here. And what does "faith in you faith" mean? My faith falls to the Father of Lights firstly, to the Anointed One secondly, to the Universal and Spiritual WORD (ie. The Eternal LOGOS) thirdly, and to the sacred scriptures *fourthly*. Now that's what I call putting the Bible in it's rightful place!
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 As to gaining the respect and honor of people ... I should think that these things are not so easily obtained as you make out. How can anyone simply say "I'm a prophet!" and be accepted and believed at once, when neither the churches nor the society at large will even allow for the possible existence of such creatures?! When I was first starting out on the Lord's prophetic ministry I was met with disbelief, incredulity, and scorn, and that's pretty much how it's remained ever since. Thus those who seek honor and respect ought to choose another line of work (eg. novel-writing).
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 Moreover, to say "I'm a prophet!" is never enough. One must at least throw out a prophecy or two now and again. Of course, the offensive one is deliberately very lax in that department; since fortune-telling only forms a VERY small part of my understanding of the prophetic gifts and ministries (but that's another story). Yet even so, I have on occasion made "prophecies" of sorts. I am not aware that any of these have yet been shown to be false, thus revealing me as a false prophet (ie. according to the Bronze Age rules and categories (which most believers seem obstinately unable to outgrow) most often used by Christians to identify these ever-present "false prophets"; those "ravenous wolves" and "stealers of souls").
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 So perhaps I ought now to produce a fresh new prophecy so as to provide the many many Bronze Age minds out there with more ammo with which to shoot down those nasty prophet wannabes? Okay, fine then! ...  ummm ... Just give me a minute now ... urrrr ... Hey, fortune-telling prophets don't grow on trees, you know! ... Argh! It's like passing a satan-damned kidney-stone! ... ouff ... Well, I hope you're happy now. That was very NOT fun! ... oy ... Anyway, here it is:
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 There will come a time when all the rich and powerful ones, along with the politicians and world-shakers, and even the mighty powers-that-be, will be judged not by what they do to change things, or what they accomplish by way of shaping the present course of events, but rather by the intensity of their concern for the future ...
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 So instead of asking how we should go about unmasking all these false prophets that are lurking about the place, let us ask instead a far more useful question: What does it mean to be a prophet? Now this is what I call 'a good question'. And the best answer to it that I know of comes straight from the prophetic gospel:
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 They brought the man who used to be blind to the Pharisees. (Now the day on which Jesus made the mud and caused him to see was a Sabbath.) So the Pharisees asked him again how he had gained his sight. He replied, "He put mud on my eyes and I washed, and now I am able to see." Then some of the Pharisees began to say, "This man is not from God, because he does not observe the Sabbath." But others said, "How can a man who is a sinner perform such miraculous signs?" Thus there was a division among them. So again they asked the man who used to be blind, "What do you say about him, since he caused you to see?" ... "He is a prophet," the man replied. -- Gospel of John, chapter 9, verses 13 to 17 / NETbible
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 btw: I'm an unregistered AND unlicensed prophet. Nuff said!

P.S. "If you don't play by the rules, the game means nothing." -- Mister Steed (british secret agent)

/ Topic >  Re: The Prophet Passes a Prophecy! / Forum > TOL - BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale V /
/ Newsgroups > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.religion.apologetics and alt.bible.prophecy / Date > 18 Oct 2002 /

> On 17oct rapt replied: Well, textman, after reading your last post, and your definition of what
> a prophet of God is, let us know the truth: Have you ever healed anyone of anything like the
> TRUE Prophet did? Or was your post a merely parody to amuse us with?
.
 textman answers: Yes and no. That is the short version of the answers to your two questions. But I suppose that a little elaboration is called for here. Hence the long version:
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 Now it is said that there is in the land a certain diligent gardener who loves the Lord. When the spring comes, the gardener goes out and prepares the soil. And when the time is right he places the seeds in nice straight rows; each row having a different type of seed, so that many edible plants may grow side by side in the same good earth, yet each in its proper place. As the tiny plants are well watered and fed by the sun and skies, so they grow and ripen and care not for the gardener or his plans. And although the gardener labors hard to keep the garden healthy and strong, some of the plants fall victim to the ways of the world. Some are choked by weeds, others are ravaged by grasshoppers, others are knocked down by strong winds, others are eaten by mice or worms, and still more fall to the evil hunger of "doz rabbeets", and so on and so forth. Yet despite all the chaos and confusion of the never- ending battle, some few plants manage to survive, while a tiny fraction even seem to thrive, despite all the hostility and adversity (or perhaps because of it).
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 Needless to say, the meaning of this parable is not immediately evident in its totality, since a literal reading will not (because it cannot) discover the significance of these verses. But if I give you the key to unlock the mystery, then the truth gradually breaks forth. Suppose, therefore, that the cyber-prophet is like unto this diligent gardener, and the little seeds are his many and varied prophetic epistles that are sown into the good earth (ie. cyber-space).
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 The different types of plants represent the different types of minds and hearts that receive the prophetic word; each understanding it in his or her own way, according to the inner light granted to each by the Father of Lights. But there are still many and various factors that can influence each reader, and how they respond to these epistles. Those knocked down by strong winds are those who are too committed (to some doctrine or theology or teacher, etc) to accept these messages in good faith.
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 Those eaten by rabbits are those who reject the epistles because the author does not measure up to their personal expectations and demands as to what a prophet must be and do. Those eaten by mice and worms are those who are too preoccupied with the world and its worries to even ask what these epistles are really saying. It's not that they don't believe, or don't want to believe, it's just that they have no time or energy to ask themselves hard questions.
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 On the other hand, some readers come only to be amused. They are very strong and certain in their unbelief, and love to laugh at the Lord as much as they can. Yet even these horribly corrupted persons are receiving some few drops of the Spirit of Truth into their hearts, such that the Word begins to stir deep within them, and often compels them to hunger for more. For the Lord's many truths work in many many mysterious ways; ways often unnoticed, and more often simply ignored. These are the ones who constantly battle with the weeds of doubt and disbelief. No doubt they are legion, poor sods; but still precious unto the Lord.
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 Then again there are those that thrive in the face of the world's unbelief. They do not care to judge the wisdom of the Lord in choosing this unworthy vehicle. They do not care to test the prophet to see if his claims be valid or not. Rather, they rejoice in the Lord, and give thanks for the abundant blessings and riches thus bestowed only unto the eyes of pure faith. They are a sweet fragrance unto God, fer sure. And so on and so forth. For you can see by now that this is simply a parable of faith. For it is not the gardener who causes the plants to grow or wither, to bloom or fade, to live or to die. All of these things, all of these miracles, are entirely out of my hands, and in the hands of Providence.
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 All things, then, are as they should be. Amen.

P.S. "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently, but will not find me.
Because they hated knowledge, And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
They would not accept my counsel, They spurned all my reproof" (Proverbs 1:28-30).

a sevenfold definition of the word "prophet"
[from - www.infoplease.com]

 Pronunciation: (prof'it), [key] — noun.
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 1. a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration.
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 2. (in the Old Testament):
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   a. a person chosen to speak for God and to guide the people of Israel: Moses was the greatest of Old Testament prophets.
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   b. (often cap.) one of the Major or Minor Prophets.
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   c. one of a band of ecstatic visionaries claiming divine inspiration and, according to popular belief, possessing magical powers.
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   d. a person who practices divination.
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 3. one of a class of persons in the early church, next in order after the apostles, recognized as inspired to utter special revelations and predictions. 1 Cor. 12:28.
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 4. the Prophet Muhammad; the founder of Islam.
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 5. a person regarded as, or claiming to be, an inspired teacher or leader.
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 6. a person who foretells or predicts what is to come: a weather prophet; prophets of doom.
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 7. a spokesperson of some doctrine, cause, or movement.

Another Definition of the Prophet

/ Subject >  Re: Get Off My NG!!! // Ng: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy / Date > 16 July 1998 /
.
> Mr. Blankenship wrote: Textman, I am new to this NG (about two weeks now), and I just want to
> say that as far as I am concerned you are completely welcome to share your views with the rest
> of us. I do have a question though-- I noticed that you refer to yourself as a Prophet. Do you
> have visions of future events? Do you hear the voice of God? Please clarify what you mean by
> this statement. Please don't think I am being antagonistic in any way, I'm only seeking
> clarification to your claim.  In Love, Patrick
.
 Dear Patrick, I am in no way offended by your queries. In fact, I rather expected someone to ask me about this before now, but you are the first to show sufficient curiosity about this matter. Therefore, I will answer you in all seriousness. Firstly: no, I do not have visions of future events as such, although the future I see for the Church in Canada is by no means a bright and cheerful one. Secondly: no, I do not hear the voice of God in the manner of holding conversations with disembodied voices. However, the Voice of our Lord is available to me (and to you) through the Sacred Scriptures (ie. the Bible IS the Voice of our Lord). In the same way, predicting future events is NOT what Christian prophecy is all about. No indeed. Rather a prophet is simply one who, like Paul, seeks to speak the truth in all things. A prophet, therefore, is someone who is a truth-teller, a communicator, and a bearer of mystery. Thus a prophet is the one who tells Christians the things that no one else has the courage to say. The prophet is the one who sees clearly, speaks clearly, and does it all for the sake of the Lord and ALL the People of God. ...
.
 I hope this answers your questions. If you would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to ask, as it is my business to address the legitimate concerns of anyone and everyone.

/ Subject >  Re: A question of prophecy / Ng: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy / Date > 26 July 1998 /

>> someone ??? wrote: This is a common argument but it cannot be supported from scripture.
>> What use is prophecy if it does not have immediate impact upon it's hearers?
.
 Dear who??, if prophecy has no impact upon its hearers then it is worthless . . .
Utterly, totally, and completely worthless!!!
.
>> Prophecy is primarily ethical in nature and is not "history in advance".
.
 Right on both counts. Moreover, it has always been so with the biblical prophets; although there are some few predictions as well.
.
> Cfortunato answered: Why do you think that? The prophets themselves disagree -
> and I would think they would know.
.
 Generally they do. However, since prophets are not perfect creatures, they too can and do sometimes err.
.
> "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message
> that the LORD has not spoken." Deut 18:22  Note that the passage assumes that what the prophet
> does is, indeed, predictive.
.
 Dear Cfortunato, yes it's quite true that in the Bronze Age this was the most common notion of what a prophet does. This is why this gross misperception abides even today among Christians who (like yourself) really ought to know better. Was it JB's predictions that got him into such trouble with Herod? No. So then why do we call him a prophet, eh? Could it be that prophecy is something *more* than correctly guessing the shape and form of future events? Why, yes, that's exactly right. So then, your unnamed dialogue partner is quite right in suggesting that prophecy is something more ...