-- The Third Gospel --


/ Newsgroups > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.bible, alt.christnet.philosophy, alt.religion.christian.anabaptist /
/ Christian Forums > Theology Christians Only > Unorthodox Theology / Date > 13 March 2012 / Topic >
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John and Philo in Agreement
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Jesus answers the proto-trinitarians: ... This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only
broke the Sabbath but he was also saying the-god to be his own Father, thus making himself equal to the-god.
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son is not able to do anything
from himself except what he sees the Father doing; for what things that one is doing, that the Son does likewise ...
I do not receive glory from men, but I know that you do not have the love of the-god in yourselves. I have come in
the name of the Father of me, and you do not receive me; but if another comes in his own name, that one you will
receive. How are you able to believe, receiving glory from one another, and the glory from the only God you do not
seek?"
-- John 5:18-19, 41-44 / Prophet Version
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] In 'How Ancient is the Trinity Doctrine?' Wesley P. Walters sayeth: <snip> To Philo, therefore, the Word of God
] is the eternal, 
uncreated Word containing all the fullness of God and bearing His image. That divine image which
] the Word bears is the image 
in which man was created. The Word is further the sustainer, upholder and ruler of
] the world, carrying on the governing of all 
things, as God's viceroy, and containing all God's fullness. While the 

] Word is not a created thing and carries on all the functions of God, Philo is clear that there are not two gods
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wurm say: Right. And this is because Philo, like the Egyptian prophet who wrote the gospel of John, is a monotheist.
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] WW: -- although he does not attempt to explain how this can be.
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It can be easily explained on the basis that there is only one god: the-god, being the one and only true God!
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] WW: Philo's teaching is, therefore, very close to the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.
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Actually, Philo's teaching is not at all close to the post-biblical doctrine of the Trinity. The Logos-theology, in fact,
goes back for centuries, all the way to Heraclitus; and when allied to it's twin, the wisdom-theology (eg. Sophia),
goes back for thousands of years deep into the history of Israel and ancient Egypt. This long and LONG tradition
obviously did not spring full-blown into the minds of those forward-looking Jewish theologians at Alexandria working
around the beginnings of the common-era.

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So how is it, then, that anyone can consider that the Logos-theology of Philo and John is in any way a step toward
the trinitarian theology? ... Clearly, it is nothing of the kind. Indeed, it is not even a step AWAY from monotheism!
This is what the trinitarians can't seem to grasp. To cross over the line between 'divine' to 'divinity' seems like a
simple and easy step for foolish believers; and perhaps it even has some slight logical appeal. Why, even the almost-
wise Justin Martyr succumbed to this temptation, and openly declared that Jesus is "God and man".

.
But this was a serious mistake on his part; and one that was picked up by almost everyone eventually. Nevertheless,
this is a line that should never be crossed by any 
theology claiming to have its roots within the ancient traditions
of monotheistic 
thought. Let me therefore emphasize once again that the Logos-theology is NOT a violation of the
principle of 'the-one-god'. Think of it this way: the cosmic-father is like a star, and the Logos is like the star-light
(JC=son=light) that radiates away from that star. Is there then any reason to confuse the sun with the sunlight that
travels from its source to us here on Earth?

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Of course, ignorant theologians can certainly confuse themselves by thinking about it overmuch, but no sane and
responsible theology could ever part company with reality 
to the extent that the trinitarians do. So all that WW's
(rather biased) review of the 
texts show is that the prophet John was obviously a fascinated and attentive student
of Philo's writings. John's position is accordingly the same as Philo's; namely, that the 
Logos is divine, as the prophet
John clearly stated in verse 1:1c ... BEFORE some 
trinitarian-editor came along and changed 'divine' to 'god' (by
simply dropping the iota), thereby making the prophet seem a liar to his own theology!

.
] Philo reached his conclusions without the aid of the New Testament
] and certainly without deriving his ideas from pagan notions of deity.
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Here we see WW's ignorance laid bare for all to see. Philo did in fact derive much of the basic substance of the
concept of the Logos from
the older greek-philosophy (which WW foolishly calls pagan-notions).
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] WW: The Old Testament teaching that the Angel of Yahweh is really the presence of Yahweh
] Himself seems to have strongly 
influenced Philo's ideas.

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Not as strongly as the philosophical concept of the Logos; which, once adopted, he then systematically
applied to the scriptures;
with rather amazing results.

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] WW: To relegate the doctrine of the Trinity, therefore, to a fourth-century adaptation of paganism
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whatever that means ...
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] is to ignore the conclusions that several Jewish theologians and teachers had reached four centuries
] earlier, from God's 
revelations given to Israel before the time of the coming of Christ.

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And not just to Israel, but *also* to the early Greek philosophers and sages; in order to further prepare the way
for the coming of
the Christos, *and* the understanding of this same Anointed-One by means of the Logos-
theology as developed by Philo and John.

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] At the very time that the Word was becoming flesh (John 1:1,14), Jewish writers were already beginning 
] to see that God's Word 
could in some way be distinguished from God the Father Himself, yet have all the
] fullness of God contained in Him.

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The 'fullness of deity' when applied to the Logos does NOT demand 'equality with god', as you slyly suggest
that it does. On the contrary,
the use of 'son' and 'father' to describe the relationship between god and Logos
naturally implies that the Son is subordinate to the Father.
And this is indeed what the prophet John (and
indeed the NT as a
whole) consistently teaches us.

.
Philo and John *and* the ancient greek philosophers are *all* in agreement that the Logos is divine. It is only
silly theologians (like
Mr Walters here) who boldly ASSUME that 'divine' can *only* mean 'equality with god'.
What a bogus argument this is! The only thing
that WW has proved in this essay is that the Trinity is NOT a
biblical
doctrine after all, and, in fact, is contrary to both the spirit and letter of the *entire* Logos tradition.
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Well done, Wesley! :D
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- one who is sick of the lies of the scribes ~ cybrwurm ;>



/ Christian Forums > Theology Christians Only > Unorthodox Theology / Thread > John and Philo in Agreement / Date > 16 March 2012 /
/ Newsgroups > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.bible, alt.christnet.philosophy, alt.religion.christian.anabaptist / Topic > 
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Is Christianity Broken?
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] joeydownunder say: I see in several other forums you have been pulled up for using this 'prophet' version of the bible.
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wurm replies: Say what? "pulled up" you say? This is news to me. I have no idea what exactly it is that you are referring to.
Can you
provide some specific instances of this alleged pulling-up type of behavior?
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] joey: Why do you continue to use it?
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Well, joeydownunder, I continue to use it because the Prophet Version is hands down the best translation of the Greek
scriptures in the entire
world! And not only that, but it is also the ONLY version that is made by an authentic christian
prophet (that is, myself); hence the name,
'Prophet Version'.
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] "If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ
] and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He
] has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension,
] slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of
] the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain." -- 1 Timothy 6:3-5 / English Standard Version

.
Whoa! Are you saying that all this applies to me? Seriously? Don't you think that maybe this is just a tad too extreme, and
perhaps even over the top? ... Well, you are certainly one very brave soul to risk the wrath of the Lord by so recklessly
casting such excessive judgments upon the Lord's good and loyal slave. Why, one might even say that throwing (literary)
stones at His so few and far between prophets is the gravest of sins against the holy-spirit.

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Now I don't know where your head is at these days, joey, but I'll be happy to give you some idea where mine is at. The way
I see it is that Christianity in the 21st century is pretty much dead in the water. The younger generations show little or no
interest in our religion, and many people all around the world are turning their backs on the Faith. Most Christians see all
this and blame the kids for their shallowness and spiritual blindness, or blame the secular culture of our global society, or
blame the rampant greed that infects all nations and peoples. Yes, they will blame anything and everything ... *except* the
current condition of the Christian religion; which is, in fact, the true source of this terrible crisis of Faith! Perhaps all this
does not bother you at all, joey; but I tell you truly, it bothers the Lord, big-time!

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So what's wrong with Christianity today? To over-simplify somewhat, the problem is caused by the excessive irrationality and
magical-thinking that is the enduring legacy of the Faith as shaped and molded by countless generations of christian scribes
and pharisees. This madness infects christian theology from top to bottom, and seeps into all aspects of the thought and
practice of the christian religion. For example, there's one guy in these forums who thinks that Paul is the author of Hebrews
because - wait for it - it's better for the numbers (which he considers vastly more important than the truth of things)!

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Now people aren't stupid (that one aside), and when they see things like that they are both disgusted and repulsed. And rightly
so, I might add; for this is the first and lasting impression that Christianity makes upon all manner of people outside the Faith.
Indeed, I dare say that it leaves all sensible people with a bad taste in their mouths. And because of all this, Christianity has
become a sick and aging beast, dying from its own corruption.

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And how do believers respond to this wide-spread and potent disgust and revulsion toward the Faith? They shake their heads
sadly, and say that if the Faith-of-Ages was good enough for our forefathers, then it's certainly good enough for us; and so the
fault must lie with the unbelievers themselves. Well, I'm sorry, joey, but this smug and complaisant attitude just doesn't cut it
anymore. Is it not acutely obvious to all that Christianity is broken and flawed in all its aspects? And painful as it is, this truth
must be recognized and accepted by all believers.

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Yes, the plain truth is that the Faith is in very desperate need of a serious make-over. And so this is what we are trying to
accomplish! We want to rebuild the Faith from the ground up. We do NOT want to rebuild it upon the shifting foundations of
irrationality, magical-thinking, and hatred of philosophy, knowledge, and wisdom. No indeed. We would much rather rebuild
it upon the solid bedrock of grace and truth, upon the existential realities of love and reason, and upon sound pillars of
knowledge and wisdom.

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The way we see it, this is the *only* way forward for the Faith. It is, in fact, the only chance that the Faith has to become
relevant and meaningful to the spiritually hungry masses who are now being offered only the lifeless stones of the scribes and
pharisees. And all the while the bread of life lies ignored and forsaken in some dark corner; forgotten (when not despised) by
believers who really ought to know better. I tell you truly, the Lord is not at all impressed by the colossal spiritual blindness of
his ignorant and misled people!

.
Therefore we are doing our very best to *change* this deplorable situation; to turn things around, and make the Faith into
something that is at least semi-intelligible to the billions of non-believers out there suffering in the darkness ... And how do
christians in general repay our hopeless and thankless efforts? By calling the Lord's meager prophet "depraved in mind and
deprived of the truth"! A lousy heretic who is "puffed up with conceit and understands nothing"!
.
... Oh yeah, that's just bloody great, that is!
  


bite me!

] On 18 March joeydownunder say: Your version of John 5:42: "I do not receive
] glory from men, but I know that you do not have the love of the-god in yourselves."
] Compare many other translations via BibleGateway.com :
] (KJV) But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
] (NIV) but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts.
] (ESV) But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.
] Even the Message paraphrasing "version" makes it clear that God is GOD not lower-case
] "the-god": I know that love, especially God's love, is not on your working agenda.
.
All your little list of authorities has accomplished is to prove that my version is the best of the bunch ... *IF* you judge quality as
a measure of fidelity to the original Greek text. Now the reason I use "the-god" is to deliberately distinguish it from these lesser
translations where "God" could very easily be understood as a reference to the Trinity. However, in the NT "the-god" - or (if you
prefer) "the God" - means 'the one and only true God', being the God of Jesus Christ, who is the Cosmic Father (also known as
'Abba'). So then the ONLY reason I use lower-case "the-god" is to further help the reader understand that I am referring to the
Father, and NOT to the Trinity. In this I am simply being true to the intentions of the inspired authors. This is not a matter of
opinion, joey, it is simply a literary fact of the texts that I respect far more than the other versions available to believers. No
slight or insult is intended by the use of "the-god", and if you see such therein it is because you are placing it there deliberately,
*contrary* to my intentions. Therefore I stand by my translation, and you have yet to demonstrate that the PV is in any way
inferior to these other versions!

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] joey: You are mistranslating to suit your own anti-trinitarian beliefs just like JWs do.
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Well now, joey, this is the second time in the same thread that you have insulted me without just cause. Can I look forward to
a third and fourth insult? Or will you do the
christian thing, and apologize for your bad behavior?


and now for ...

/ Christian Forums > Theology Christians Only > Unorthodox Theology / Date > 22 March 2012 / Topic > Re: John and Philo in Agreement /
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] On 20March joeydownunder say: Have you always not believed in the Trinity doctrine?
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wurm say: Of course not. For most of my life I was a good and loyal trinitarian; just like
everybody else who has been hoodwinked by the false theology of the scribes and pharisees.
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] joey: If not, what made you leave the mainstream church's teachings?
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Even when I started out as a bible scholar I was still very much orthodox in my thinking; but gradually I came
to realize that when the NT mentions 'the-god' it is referring to Abba 98% of the time. And when I went to
investigate the 2% exceptions, I found that almost all of these were obvious corruptions of the original texts;
such as the two 'God' additions in the first chapter of Hebrews. So I began to wonder about the veracity and
legitimacy of the trinitarian interpretation of the NT in general. After much painful investigation it finally dawned
on me that 'Christ' and 'God' were two entirely different words! Either Jesus was God the Son, OR  Jesus was the
Anointed One (as testified to in the sacred greek-texts). The one thing he can't be is both, because that is a
contradiction in terms. It's like saying that Jesus was a man and a woman at the same time. It just doesn't work,
you see; and those who think that Jesus IS both God and Christ are obviously lacking a proper understanding of
one or both of these terms.
.
So it all came down to a rather easy choice: either the scribes and pharisees are right in their irrational trinitarian
theology of magical-thinking and bogus redefining of terms ... OR ... the inspired authors were right in proclaiming
Jesus as the Anointed One. I think I made the right call. And I've been proclaiming the truth ever since. However,
if you think I made the wrong choice, I am certainly more than willing to listen to anything you may have to say
about it.
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] joey: You must be unused to people who call your bluff if you interpret my questions
] and statements as insults.
.
This statement also has an insult in it, since there is no bluffing going on at this end, joey. However, I am certainly
not unused to people insulting me. Yours are actually quite mild compared to some I've seen over the years. My
online teaching ministry is now in its fourteenth year, joey, so I've seen all sorts of reactions to my various postings.
I don't mind, really, since I understand that most people are very unwilling to let go of the things that were poured
into their heads as children ... even when most of that is pure rubbish. 


textman
*