/ Re: New to this newsgroup -- I am dissappointed / Newsgroup > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy / 9 Nov 1999 /

> Rivermist wrote: I guess it is no one's fault. I mean, you can't keep people from posting to the
> newsgroup even though it is apparent that it is not for them. I just wonder about them -- those
> people who spend so much time barging into our party to spew their venom and offensive
> comments. What do you suppose makes them want to come where they aren't wanted?
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 textman say: Dear Rivermist, this is hardly a new experience for Christians. The New Testament gives ample testimony that the same sort of thing was going on right from the beginnings of the Faith. Thus in the fifties of the first century, Paul's churches were beset by "other apostles" teaching "another gospel". These invaders came in among them to urge them to a more exacting following of the Torah (and all its many rules and regulations), and also to look to Jerusalem for leadership. Needless to say, Paul was not much impressed, and indeed had some rather harsh words to say about them.
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 A generation later, the Faith had moved beyond its Jewish cradle, and had entered fully into the wider and wilder world of the Roman Empire. Here the still young churches encountered a wide variety of Gnostics (People in the Know) who were experts at picking and choosing various elements from the surrounding religions, and making them their own. Many of these heretics were so impressed with the Faith that they even called themselves 'Christians'. Some of these entered the assemblies of the faithful in order to spread their lies directly among the true believers. 1John and the Gospel of John show a strong awareness of these poisonous infiltrators; and much of what is taught there is a direct rebuttal of Gnostic beliefs and practices.
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 In the second century, these Gnostic deceivers were everywhere to be found among the faithful. In Egypt, the prophets strongly objected to their heresy, and spent their energies combating the 'Gospel of Perversion' that these infiltrators preached and practiced. The universal epistles of James, Jude, and 2Peter not only refuted and demolished the lies and deceptions of these heretics, but also show a strong awareness that these invaders were sadly to be found in all the churches around the Empire. These prophets of Egypt, like Paul, also had some harsh words to say about them!
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 Today however, the churches open wide their arms to welcome these very same perverters - these 'Ones of Old' (as the prophet Judas calls them) - to come in among them; and so to poison the Faith from within. And so successful are these liars and deceivers in corrupting believers to their way of thinking, that many now actually think it is their Christian duty to promote and protect, to approve and encourage, the madness of these whores from Hell! For any believer to even question the wisdom of this rank policy of favoritism and appeasement opens him or her to attack from his/her own brothers and sisters. And so few faithful teachers exist today to fight for the Faith that these perverters have all but won the battle, and indeed now run the churches on their own behalf, and to their own benefit.
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 Is it any wonder, then, that even in this forum dedicated to bible study we should find an abundance of atheists and unbelievers who make it their life's work to insult and belittle the Faith by any and every possible means? It shouldn't be. For today the Faith is under attack as never before in its entire long and troublesome history. It is under attack from without (eg. our resident slimy trolls). And it is under attack from within; by those who fancy themselves the most loyal and outstanding of all Christians!

/ Forum > TheologyOnLineBibleStudies / Date > 6 Sept 1999 / Topic > BIBLE HISTORY AND BIBLE-THUMPERS /
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 Dear Cyber-Saints, ever see the movie 'Dead Poets Society'? ... "Oh Captain, my Captain!" ... LOL ... But seriously, that is a great film all around. And one that surely merits further reflection ... "Oh History, my History!" ...
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 Yes, it's a sad and sobering fact that in this wonderful Information Age of universal education and widespread literacy, that the number of Christians who know even a little of the long and adventuresome history of the Faith is shockingly minuscule. It often seems that few, if any, Believers have much understanding of the importance and  value of things like the history of the early Greek churches, and the history of the formation of the New Testament. Thus many sincere Cyber-Saints will often speak of events and happenings from those important early days of the Faith in a way that it is fairly oozing with passionate piety and conviction, but at the same time reveals a profound contempt for the real history of the Faith.
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 This is what I dislike most about these self-righteous teachers and experts on Scripture - Hi, Fisherman! :) - who apparently suppose that the Bible provides all true believers with everything they need to know about the early history of the churches; and indeed about history in general, period! Such people also tend to nurture grandiose notions regarding the inerrancy of Scripture (being blissfully unaware of the gross idolatry involved in this); as well as incredibly simplistic - and indeed ludicrous - ideas about the past and future of Christianity and the World.
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 It's a shame, really, that so many good believers must stubbornly read Luke-Acts as if it were a true and accurate journalistic account of the early days of the Faith (being, again, blissfully unaware of the gross stupidity involved in this). It makes all Christians seem very foolish, and horribly ignorant, about their own history. And, of course, all this does nothing for the credibility and value of the Faith in the eyes of an already incredulous and dismissive pagan world.
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 But these arrogant scribes and miscellaneous Bible-thumpers care not one whit about that! They would *much* rather wallow in their rank and proudly ignorant bibliolatry, and strut about like peacocks displaying their vast and magnificent command of the Sacred Scriptures for all the World to marvel at and admire! ... "Oh Captain, my Captain!"

/ Subject > Re: cyber-prophet / Forum > TheologyOnLine - BibleStudy /
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> On 7Sept99 Fisherman replied to 'Bible History & Bible-Thumpers':
> Tondaar, Just what sort of a prophet do you profess yourself to be?
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 On 8Sept99 Tondaar answers Fisherman's query: Dear Fisherman, who, me? Oh I'm just a plain old cyber-prophet of the Word; which is merely to say that I serve the Lord and His People by way of being a slave of His good Word (ie. the sacred scriptures). This simply means that I am not a teacher or a preacher or a scholar or a scribe, but I do share in some of the functions and responsibilities of all of these more humble creatures.
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> The ordinary Hebrew word means "to bubble forth" like a fountain;
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 Yup. That's pretty much what I do alright ...  :)
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> hence it means one "who anounces or pours forth the declarations of God."
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 "Thus sayeth the Lord ..." is a good description of my ministry. What I mean by this is that the driving force behind all my many postings and articles is to make the scriptures more intelligible and meaningful to today's People of God.
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> Our english word comes from the Greek "prophetes," which signifies "one who speaks for
> another, specially one who speaks for a god, and so interprets his will to man; hence the
> meaning is an interpreter."
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 A darn good definition alright! ... And you wonder why I'm so impressed by the early Greek churches?
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> One commentator says: "prophecy comprehends three things: prediction; singing by the dictate
> of the Spirit; and understanding and explaining the mysterious, hidden sense of Scripture by an
> immediate illumination and motion of the Spirit." I perceive that you are using the word "prophet"
> as "teacher," and are self-proclaiming yourself as the greatest of history teachers ... is this
> somewhere near correct?
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 As usual when it comes to your guesses: No, it is not! A much better understanding of the function of the prophet is that he is one who is a communicator, a truth-teller, and a bearer of mystery. This definition was offered by an American bishop as a definition of the priest, but since post-modern American priests are none of these things, I think it serves better as a good description of the prophet.
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> Almighty God said to Abraham: "As for me ..." (Genesis 17:4-7)
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 Oh Yeah? And how is this relevant to the current thread?
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> Concerning this Covenant it is said (in Heb 6:13-20) that because God had sworn to it by an
> oath and because it was impossible for God to lie, the Covenant is immutable, unalterable,
> unchangeable, and everlasting, which means IT MUST BE IN EFFECT TODAY.
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 I have no idea what you're on about. Since the Covenant did in fact change (ie. with the coming of the Son of Man), obviously the Covenant was not "immutable, unalterable, unchangeable, and everlasting".
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> God changed the name of Jacob (Abraham's grandson) to Israel, (Gen. 35:10). Israel had 12
> sons, each the head of his own family. These families developed into the 12-tribed nation of
> Israel (Gen. 35:22).
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 If you expect me to agree that this is a factual historical account of the way things actually were, I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you. History is rarely so clean and clear-cut.
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> God warned Israel that if they persisted in continually breaking His Laws, that He would banish them
> from the land of Palestine and scatter them among the heathens (like lost sheep) (Lev. 26:28-46).
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 Which is exactly what happened!
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> For a good many years all went well, but the people wanted to be like other peoples around them, and
> demanded an earthly king, so Saul was appointed as Israel's first king. Later he was removed because
> of sin, and God Himself appointed David (of the tribe of Judah) to be king over all Israel. God then
> established the Throne of David FOREVER (2 Sam. 7:11-17).
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 God gave Israel the king as a concession to their hard-heartedness. He knew very well that Israel is not about kings and courts and worldly pomp and vanity. Therefore it is hardly feasible that God intended the throne to last forever (regardless of any statements made to the contrary).
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> But alas, Solomon, to whom David passed the throne, fell into sin causing the kingdom to be
> divided into two kingdoms (1 Kings 11:29-36). The ten tribes under the leadership of Ephraim
> formed the Nothern Kingdom of ISRAEL with Samaria as its capital and Jeroboam as its king.
> This ten-tribed kingdom was defeated in battles and carried away captive into Assyria, the
> accounts of this are found in 2 Kings 17:6-18 and 18:11-12.
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 Actually, Fisherman, the history of Israel is not my area of expertise. Although I do study the entire history of the People of God, my primary concern is with the first three centuries of the Common Era (1-300CE). In other words, the period of the early Greek churches from the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth to just after the death of Adamantius.
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> The prevailing religious bodies declare that because God had caused Israel to be driven
> from the land of Palestine, He cast them away forever.
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 Nonsense. He was merely teaching them a lesson; as he usually did in those days.
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> In doing so, they teach, God had brought His Kingdom, established at Sinai, to an end
> and in its place has chosen what they term the Gentile church, or "Spiritual Israel."
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 I would say that God's Kingdom is big enough to contain both Jews and Christians, and that his Kingdom is indeed a spiritual Kingdom built upon the hearts of men and women of good-will everywhere.
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> My question to you as the greatest history teacher that cyber space has ever known, is:
> "Can you shed any light as to the whereabouts of these ten tribes today?"  -- In His Service
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 Dear Fisherman, who cares? ... I only deal with questions that are relevant and necessary to the practice of the Faith today; and with issues and concerns and dangers that the People of God are facing here and now. Theoretical and scholastic questions and topics ought to be addressed to those scribes and scholars who specialize in such matters.

/ Subject >  Re: Who cares? / Forum > TheologyOnLine - BibleStudy /
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> On 8Sept99 Fisherman wrote: Tondaar, For someone claiming to be
> "a slave of His good Word" you have such a very callous attitude.
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 On 9Sept99 Tondaar replies: Dear Fisherman, it depends on the topic.
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> When Christ came to earth He declared, "I am not sent, but unto the lost sheep of the House of
> Israel" (Matt. 15:24). Do you think that He would have come to seek a people that did not exist?
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 The Jewish people did exist.
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> I don't think so, but rather, it is declared of Him that He came to "confirm the promises made unto the
> fathers" (Rom. 15:8). Also, Paul in answer to the question, "Hath God cast away His people"? replied
> in no uncertain terms, "God hath not cast away His people." (Romans 11:1-2)
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 I agree with Paul. In rejecting the Messiah and his prophets they set off on their own course: "... For you brothers and sisters became imitators of the assemblies of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea. You suffered the same treatment from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and also drove us out [ie. this is a direct reference to the expulsion of the radical Hellenistic-Jewish believers from Jerusalem c.40CE]. They displease God and are hostile to all people by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved. They always fill up the measure of their sins; but the wrath of God has come upon them at last!" [1Thess 2:14-16 / Prophet Version]
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> James wrote "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad," (James 1:1) and Peter addressed
> his epistle to the "strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia."
> (1 Peter 1:1)
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 The second century Egyptian-Christian prophet Jacob and the author of 1Peter (ie. Silvanus) are both referring to the New Israel, the Gentile People of God who are scattered throughout the Roman Empire; being (as it were) resident aliens or strangers in the land. In the early second century some Christians were reacting against Judaism and the Jews for their rejection of the Messiah and his followers. Marcion is perhaps the most famous example of this, as he threw out the entire Tanakh (as not being worthy of the Faith). This corruption of the new religion was vigorously resisted by the faithful Egyptian churches. Both the Christian prophets and the Apologists made much good use of the LXX in their defense of the Faith. In light of all this, it is certainly appropriate for Jacob to make reference to "the twelve tribes" as a description of the various Christian churches "scattered abroad".
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> For centuries the most famous seats of learning, universities, colleges and theological institutions
> have been at a loss to solve the question ... what was the ultimate fate of the so-called "lost
> Tribes of Israel" in Assyrian captivity?
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 Assimilation, perhaps?
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> And I thought that a great prophet of History, such as you claim
> to be, would know of the people to whom these books were written.
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 The Book of James was written for all the Greek churches of the early second century, while 1Peter was written (c.70-80CE) for the churches in the Asia Minor region were Silvanus had his ministry.
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> For you seem to know "who" wrote them.  -- In His Service
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 The Book of James and 1Clement were both written by the early second century Egyptian-Christian prophet Jacob of Alexandria. Silvanus wrote 1Peter; for the evidense of the text clearly suggests that it certainly wasn't the apostle Simon-Peter. ... As to the so-called "lost tribes of Israel", I see no great mystery in this. And more importantly, I do not see that it is a matter of any relevance to believers today. As to the Gospel of Matthew, this was written to address a situation were there was still some small hope that the surviving Jewish people would accept Jesus as the promised Messiah. We have all long since moved beyond that point ...

/ Re: A question on the accuracy of the Bible / TheologyOnLine forum: Bible Study / 
/ Newsgroups > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.bible.prophecy / Date > 5 Jan 2000 /
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> On 11Dec1999 lfinghin wrote: <snipsome> One can say one has answered a question a
> thousand times. That is no guarantee that one has answered it correctly.
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 erasmian answers: Dear lfinghin, I couldn't possibly agree more. This is why it is so essential to any rational or reasonable approach to scripture that all of us retain a healthy skepticism toward the things posted in these muddy cyber-waters. That and a willingness to accept criticism to the end of learning which way is up goes a long way toward finding the right answers ...
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> There is no factual evidence I can see for the claim that one of these genealogies is
> through Mary. The text simply doesn't support that. It contradicts it.
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 It's interesting how a careful attention to the 'bare text' has this nasty tendency to make hash of all the longly noble traditions that have built up around the text so as to protect and honor it within a rosy glowing aura of sanctimonious piety. But the bare text neither needs nor wants these theological and priestly supports and trappings (that accomplish little more than to obscure the truth of things).
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 Truly I say unto thee: Blessed is the believer who reads the Word with a mind as open as a loving heart! Blessed is the Reader who sets out to learn from the great saints and teachers of the Faith! Blessed is the Reader who is able to think clearly, rationally, and with a strong sense of the meaning and value of church-history. Blessed is the Reader who knows that faith must always go hand in hand with knowledge (ie. knowledge of the scriptures, knowledge of the Lord, and even knowledge of the World) ...
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> My purpose is not to attack Christianity, but simply point out that this is clear and compelling
> evidence that the Bible is the work of men (although clearly inspired by God). Being a work of
> man it is subject to man's errors.
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 Yes, but that is precisely the point that sticks in the craw of all these fundy-types hereabouts. If they admit (the rather obvious fact) that many sundry errors are even now lurking within the "inerrant" and canonical 66-book bible, then they will be forced to concede that man's efforts are required 'to sort things out' (as it were). And *that* effort necessarily involves replacing their beloved pious theologies with critical scholarship and scientific history; and *that* means a LOT of work and thought that they are simply too intellectually lazy to welcome, let alone pursue with determination (as befits any self-respecting seeker of truth)!
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> This in itself is not a defect.
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 I tend to agree. Indeed, I'd even say that the many and various (mostly minor) errors and irregularities within the sacred texts are proof positive that the text is constantly and intimately bound up with the concrete world of human history and civilization. Thus the Word of God has marched hand in glove with the long march of ever-increasing rationalization that has shaped the course of life on this planet (since the very beginnings of the Old Stone Age long long ago), and has even now brought this world-wide cyber-synagogue into being such that any and all literate and computerized believers can come and partake of our mutual affirmation of our good Lord Jesus Christ; and to search his Word for Light & Life & Truth!
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> Perhaps God gives us "mixed signals", and imperfect testimony to test our faith.  -- best regards, lf
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 To test our faith, yes. And also to make it strong in a World that is ever more eager to give itself over to the Wicked One.

P.S.  " Warning Against Drifting Away : Therefore we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken through angels proved to be so firm that every violation or disobedience received its just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was first communicated through the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard him, while God confirmed their witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." -- Hebrews 2:1-4 / NETbible

/ Topic > On Being a PoMo-Puritan / Forum: TheologyOnLine - Religion / NG: alt.religion.christian.baptist / 14 Nov 2000 /
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 Dear Cyber-Saints, for those of you who may still be wondering whether or not the Faith of the apostles, prophets, and saints has any meaning and/or relevance in our networked post-modern world ... I recently found a most interesting quote-byte that may help you ward off all those nasty cyber-demons of doubt:
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 "These values were characteristic of Protestantism, in particular its more extreme form, Puritanism. Merchants and traders in the 16th and 17th centuries, many of whom were Protestant or Puritan, had a particular attitude towards the accumulation of wealth. Instead of acquiring wealth in order to live a luxurious lifestyle, Protestant traders reinvested their wealth, worked hard, and were frugal. A key feature of Protestantism was the belief that God is best served, not only by worship, but also by one's contribution to human endeavour on earth. Hard work and wealth increase the chances of being one of God's chosen few, whereas a frivolous lifestyle is morally wrong and likely to be punished on judgment day. For Weber, 'this particular idea, so familiar to us today, but in reality so little a matter of course, of one's duty in a calling, is what is most characteristic of the social ethic of capitalist culture, and is in a sense the fundamental basis of it'" (M.Oliver, 'History of Philosophy', page 157).

P.S.  . . .  AMEN!

textman
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