/ Date > 4 Aug 1998 / To > kevin.beach@mcmail.com / Topic > Re: Wut? Is this Prophecy? /
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> Kevin Beach wrote: Textman - I'm not posting this, it's just for you. If you are
> a Christian prophet (and I do not know if you are or not),
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 textman say: Dear Kevin, you are being far more charitable in your unknowing than the vast majority
of Christians who scoff and laugh at the very idea!!!
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> then would it not be appropriate to attempt to imitate Christ to some degree?
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 To *some* degree, yes. But it is not a prophet's business to imitate Christ in the sense of walking about being another Jesus. He and I are two very different persons, having two very different personalities. It would be absurd and ultimately self-destructive to pretend to be someone like the Son of Man. I am not a Messiah. I am merely an unworthy slave of my Lord & Teacher.
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> I'm afraid that I could never imagine Jesus using the rhetoric and hyperbole that I see in your postings.
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 Perhaps you should try reading the gospel of Mark in its entirety (ie. in one sitting; but slowly and carefully), just to see if this experience might not cause you to revise this lack of imagination of yours. Jesus did not always go about singing sweetly and throwing flowers at people saying "Peace, man. Make love, not war." ... On the contrary, he knew better than anyone that proclaiming the gospel IS a kind of warfare. And he was not shy to use strong language when the occasion demanded it. ... So do not think of a prophet as one who imitates Christ. The apostle Paul and the author of the Epistle of James are much better examples or prototypes of what and who a Christian prophet is. Check it out.
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> It may be that my British sensitivity has come into play here (Brits are famed for understatement
> and, in contrast, sometimes mistakenly regard North American openness as brashness),
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 There is certainly a good deal of truth in all this. I make no effort to hide my brashness. On the contrary, I think it necessary simply in order to gain a hearing among these desensitized and hard-hearted pseudo-Christians here in America and Canada. The subtle whisper just doesn't work over here, Kevin; believe me.
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> but I think that a lot of what you say is very hurtful to the recipients.
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 I'm not so sure that it is. I think that the objects of my criticisms are far more likely to laugh at the truth, than be hurt by my words.
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> If so then it would not only be uncharitable, but counter-productive, because the people
> you attack will simply gird their loins and counter-attack, without thinking about the
> substance of what you say. It turns the whole debate into a "yah boo sucks" farce.
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 Oddly enough, this has not yet happened. No; actually, they are hard-hearted cowards to the core, who do not dare to face me. They fear me because they fear the truth. They cannot face me because they know I speak the truth, and so are powerless to defend themselves. Rather then face me openly and honestly, they much prefer to cower in the darkness, huddling together and hoping and wishing that I would just hurry up and die already!
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> Forgive me if I have misunderstood you. May God be good to you.
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 I do not not blame anyone for misunderstanding me. Indeed, the way I write pretty much invites misunderstanding. Only those secure in their faith and open-minded enough to truly listen to others, will even bother to make the attempt to understand. It DOES require some effort, I'm afraid. This does not bother me. Truth is never easy or painless.

/ Topic > Re: I have been tested! / Date > 21 Sept 1999 / Newsgroup > alt.religion.christian.biblestudy /

] On 30Aug99 Tim Eberly wrote to these ngz: alt.religion.clergy, alt.religion.christianity, alt.religion.
] christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian, alt.religion.christian.last-days: Pax, I'm sorry to hear that
] you have not understood what was being tested of you. A prophetess cannot be a prophetess
] if she makes a mistake.
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 textman say: Dear Tim, it all depends on the sort of mistake we're talking about here. You seem to be of the opinion that any prophet who makes *any* sort of mistake is (by virtue of that very fact) not a true prophet at all, but rather is thus proven a false prophet. This is a grossly inadequate view of prophecy! For one thing, prophets are only human, and therefore as liable to make mistakes as anyone. This is no reason to reject them outright. Even the Apostle Paul make some mistakes in his prophecies. According to your logic we should all go ahead and rip all his authentic epistles right out of our Bibles, because, hey, he made a mistake, and must therefore be a false prophet!
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] You have made an error when you said that a person need not believe in order to be saved.
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 Now this is indeed a very serious error, and one which ought to cause considerable reservations regarding Pax's claim to be an authentic prophetess. Having read some few of her articles, I myself am not yet prepared to acknowledge that she is a legitimate prophetess of the Lord.
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>> Mark Earnest answered: <snip> You have been saved by grace through faith and *not* of works. <snip>
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> Tim Eberly replied: Right and that faith is believing! <snip>
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>> Do not treat prophecies with contempt. Prophets are necessary to enable a
>> church (a body) to function properly.
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> I do not treat prophecies with contempt.
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 Your attitude toward the prophets (as indicated below) strongly suggests to me that you *do* treat prophecy with contempt. Perhaps you should reconsider the adequacy of your all-embracing rejection?
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> I treat false prophets with contempt. I don't know where you are getting your ideas,
> but a church can function just fine without prophets.
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 Really? And what, pray tell, leads you to this conclusion? Do you perhaps suppose that the rank corruption and spiritual desolation of all these prophet-less churches in America means that they are functioning "just fine"? ... Is it not rather the case that the sad and sorry state of the American churches means that they are very desperately in need of prophets? If only to show them just how badly off they truly are? ... Israel could not function properly without the aid and assistance of the prophets that the Lord sent unto her. The early Greek churches also had need of the prophets, since the Lord likewise sent these men of God unto them in each and every generation. But now the churches are so much more advanced, so much more superior to Israel and the early Greek churches, that we are able to dispense with them altogether? ... What colossal vanity! What monumental arrogance this is!
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> We have the Word of God in our own hands!
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 And it was the inspired prophets who wrote the majority of those books that are found in the Bible. Have you perhaps forgotten that little detail, Mr Eberly?
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> We do not need another speaking for God in order to function properly.
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 When you read the NT epistles by Paulos, Jacob, Judas, etc, you are reading the words of Christian prophets. If you cannot appreciate this fact, then how can you rightly read and know the Word of God that "we have in our own hands"? Do you not surely require a prophet to show you the true meaning of the things that you read therein? ... The very fact that there are no more Christians today who understand the important and necessary role played by the prophets in the formation of the canon and the early churches clearly demonstrates that we are NOT functioning properly!!!
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> This is rather heart breaking for me to hear. Is the world that ripe for the anti-Christ? Is it
> so lost that they need to listen to prophet when they have the word of God in their hands?
> If Pax's error has misled you imagine how easy it will be for the anti-Christ.
> His miracles will fool the weak.
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 Not all prophets are anti-christ, Tim. You could at lest give us the benefit of the doubt until such time as we prove ourselves to be "true prophets" or "false prophets". If Pax is not a true prophetess, that is one thing. But it does not mean that all who claim to be prophets are likewise.
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>> And Tim, I see no other functioning prophets in the body which comprises this area in cyberspace.
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 Hey Mark! Maybe you're just not looking hard enough ...
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> That is because you don't need one. There are plenty of Christians sharing God's message.
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 Prophets do much more than simply "share God's message"!
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> We don't need a self-proclaimed prophetess misleading people into thinking
> that they don't need to believe in order to be saved.
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 That's true enough. But you err enormously in jumping from this to the conclusion that "you don't need one".
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>> We had better find some,
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 HELLO! Can anybody hear me out there? ... Gee, textman has only been harassing and haranguing the People of God for well over a year and a half now, and still nobody knows I'm here! The Lord told me that they would close their eyes and stop up their ears against me; but this is getting ridiculous!
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>> or this body is incomplete, as would be any church body of believers.
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> I think you are wrong.
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 Actually Tim, *you* are wrong to suppose that Mark is wrong about this. He may be in error as regards Pax, but his views on the prophets are *far* better (and far more Christian) than yours.
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>> In my opinion, Pax was brave enough to fulfill this very scriptural requirement for
>> any body of believers, and I applaud her for her courage.
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 Alas, Mark, it takes more than courage to make a prophet ... Or even a prophetess. Indeed, it takes more than courage and passion both. Thus while I am much impressed by Pax's passion, I dare say that it tends to make her leap before looking.
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> Where does it say that we need a prophet in order to be complete? <snip>
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 Below follows a brief presentation of *some* of the various relevant New Testament verses (from the Revised Standard Version) offered to any who may wish to provide inquirers with a coherent and thoughtful response to difficult questions such as the one above:
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 He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. - Mt.10:41
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 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house."  - The Gospel According to Matthew, chapter #13, verse #57
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 And when he entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, "Who is this?" And the crowds said, "This is the prophet Jesus from Nazareth of Galilee." - Mt.21:10-11
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 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town ..." - Mt.23:29-34
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 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate." - Mt.23:37-38
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 Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!' There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. - Luke 13:26-28
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 Jesus said to her, "You are right in saying, 'I have no husband'; for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband; this you said truly." The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet." - John 4:17-19
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 So they again said to the blind man, "What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?" He said, "He is a prophet." - John9:17
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 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." -- Acts of Apostles, chapter #13, verses #1-2
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 And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted the brethren with many words and strengthened them. - Acts 15:32
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 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way. - 1Cor.12:27-31
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 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. - 1Cor.14:29-32
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 If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. If any one does not recognize this, he is not recognized. So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; but all things should be done decently and in order. -- First Corinthians, chapter #14, verses #37-40
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 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets ...  -- The post-pauline epistle to the Ephesians, 2:19-20
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 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. - Eph 4:11-14
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 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. - 2Peter 1:19-21
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 For three days and a half men from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. - Revelation 11:9-10

P.S.  When Ahab saw Elijah, Ahab said to him, "Is it you, you Troubler of Israel?"
And he answered, "I have not troubled Israel. But you have ...  [1Kings 18:17 / Prophet Version]

/ Subject: Re: Apostles today? / Date > 21 Sept 1998 / Newsgroup > alt.christnet.bible /
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> Dan B. Hodge wrote: Apostles are not with us simply because people today can not qualify.
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 textman answers: And why is that Dan? Are people different now? ...
Perhaps you ought to re-read The Preacher: "There is nothing new under the sun."
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> The qualifications were: to walk with Jesus from ministry to resurrection (Acts 1:21).
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  True Believers walk with Jesus every day, Dan. Yea, from birth to death to new life. This is what it means to be a Christian!
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> Paul does present a problem if these qualifications are strictly imposed,
> but he did see Jesus after the resurrection (Acts 9).
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  So did many another mystic and prophet and saint down through the centuries. Every generation holds some who can see ...
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> There is no Scriptural reason to think that the apostles of the first century had
> the ability to pass on their office.
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  Dear Dan, the prophetic/apostolic ministry/ability/vocation is not for men to "pass on" after the manner of priestcraft. No; rather it is for God to say who shall be sent, and why.
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> However, they were able to perform miracles through the laying of on of their hands.
> When their hands did not exist, that ability ceased as well.
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 Performing signs and wonders has nothing whatsoever to do with the apostolic/prophetic mission and ministry. Prophets are truth-tellers, not miracle-workers! Their "ability" is in their hearts and minds, NOT in their hands. ... Please don't try to teach others about apostles, Dan; you only make yourself look foolish.

/ Topic: Is God's (special) revelation over? -or- Are we putting God in a box? / TheologyOnLine forum: Bible Study / 4Jan2000 / Newsgroup: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy /

 "Inspiration is the point at which divinity and humanity collide. It is not so much a pleasant and enlightening meeting of minds, as a violent chemical reaction (the results of which are fearful and mysterious to both sides of the encounter)." -- textman ;>

> On 31Dec99 Gidget wrote: Dwayne, The way God continues to speak to us, as God is both the
> subject and the object of His revelation, is in fellowship, giving Himself to us in communion, a
> personal acquaintance with Him through direct encounter.
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 erasmian say: Dear Gidget, I quite agree. The saints show us that God (and the love of God) are most strongly manifested through encounters of the mystical kind. For it is only at the union of the transcendent and the mundane empirical world of sensory experience that the Lord is able to reach out and touch hearts and minds with love and truth. Thus all truth is the living truth, because our God is the Living Lord.
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> He is the Revealer and the Revealed. The impact of God's Spirit upon man goes beyond the
> writing of the Scriptures.
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 Goes *way* beyond the writing of the Scriptures, I'd say. And would add that the most significant meaning of the scriptures for all true believers is that by immersing our hearts and minds gratefully and humbly in the holy books we are able to directly encounter the Lord (whether we be in the Old Testament or the New). Thus it is through the sacred text that the Eternal Logos shines. Whether it shines brightly or through a glass darkly largely depends on whether or not the reader has the right heart/mind/attitude toward the text. If the Reader thus pleases the Holy Spirit, then perhaps grace and truth may flow freely round the tri-polar circuit of Reader/Text/Spirit.
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> Inspiration is a primary factor in every phase of Christian faith and life.
> Otherwise, all of our theology would be but a philosophy,
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 Which is to say: 'a vain philosophy' ... As is most modern (and post-modern) theology; including especially the Catholic and fundamentalist varieties.
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> and prayer itself would be a monologue. Behind all faith in God, behind every
> conversion, and behind all knowledge of God is the inspiration of God.
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 AMEN!!!
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> It is God who speaks; man answers. Your friend has answered.
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 Darn straight, sister! Humans do not live on bread alone; but on *every* word that falls from the mouth of God ...

P.S. The arrogance of the Cats is exceeded *only* by the vanity of the Fundies!

/ Topic > Re: "MUCH ADO OVER NOTHING!" / Newsgroup > alt.religion.apologetics / Date > 1 March 2000 /

> On 27Feb00 CATHY921 wrote: A Holy and infinitely Wise God and Almighty Creator must
> get a little sick at heart at all the human pride and reasonings of us puny little creatures
> ... (a lot of it on these so-called "Christian" newsgroups!
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 erasmian sayeth: Dear cathy921, that is uncommonly presumptuous of you. Why should you suppose that God "must get a little sick at heart" at the Christian ngz? I think, rather, that the Lord is not at all unsympathetic toward the cyber-saints. It's true that there is a lot of silliness and foolishness in the Christian ngz, but the answer to this is a more sensible Faith, not abandoning reason altogether.
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 Moreover, the purpose of our reasoning is not to undermine faith, but to strengthen it. It is, to put it another way, to lessen the radical obscurity of faith; to shed a little light upon the darkness of faith. Indeed, a healthy and faithful faith requires the co-operation of reason and faith. For faith without reason leads inevitably to the errors and excesses of fundamentalism and evangelicalism (ie. a faith driven to madness by uncontrolled piety). In the same way, reason without faith leads to skepticism and the rejection of all things that *seem* irrational; (the Anglican / Episcopalian churches are prime examples of apostates "improving" the Faith in the name of reason).
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> The Good Book says "There is none good but God" -- and I believe it! "All we like sheep
> have gone astray, and the Lord has laid on Himself the iniquity of us all". <snipsome>
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 The Good Creator gave us our faculties so that we could use them to defend and uphold the Faith. The fact that we are imperfect does not give us leave to abandon our responsibility "to contend earnestly for the faith" (Jude 1:3).
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> Whether you believe it or not, or like it or not, dear reader, we shall all answer to God!
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 That's right. And one of the things we shall have to answer for is whether or not we used *all* of our skills, talents, and abilities to the benefit of the Kingdom. If the Holy Spirit has given the gift of reason and interpretation to some, it would be a sin for them NOT to exercise that skill to its fullest potential.
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> "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap"...
> You sow butter beans, you get butter beans. It's that simple!
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 Does this mean that we must abandon our minds altogether?!
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> God has His physical and spiritual laws and they are in operation and true science shall prevail -- "Let
> God be true and every man a liar". God gets blamed for all our human mistakes - yes, sins is the word -
> and we puny little creatures with our finite little brains and human reasonings think we are so smart!
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 A little humility goes a long way in our efforts to uncover the depths of the Word of God, to be sure. But false humility will surely only deceive us and make us reject the truth when it is placed before us.
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> God forgive us and help us.. is all I can say, dear reader...
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 God *is* helping us, Cathy. He is sending prophets and teachers to open the glory and power of his Word for all to see. And whether you believe it or not, we all need the prophets help to see the Word in all its richness and beauty and complexity. A mindless approach to the scriptures is *necessarily* false and misleading.

P.S. Now to the one who is able to guard you without stumbling, and sets before you the glory of Him-blameless-with-exultation - and the only God, our Savior (through Jesus Christ our Lord) - let that one
be given glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all the Age; now and unto all the ages to come. Amen!  -- Jude 1:24-25 / Prophet Version

/ Topic > Re: Prophesying and the office of the Prophet / Newsgroups > alt.bible.prophecy, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy / Date > 14 Jan 2000 /
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 "If any one among you thinks to be a prophet or a spiritual man, let him fully know the things I write to you; that they are of the Lord (and so a commandment). But if any one of you does not recognize this, he also is not recognized. So then, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy! And do not forbid the speaking in tongues. But let all things be done decently, and in an orderly way." [First Corinthians 14:37-40 / Prophet Version]
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> On 5Jan00 Cloudy wrote: <snipsome> Being filled with Spirit of God means to be full
> of the wisdom of God. The wisdom of God is the understanding of the Scriptures.
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 textman say: Dear Cloudy, one of the primary essential functions of the prophet today is the interpretation of the scriptures. This is why it is so dangerous to pay heed to the interpretations of those who are not gifted with the prophetic charism (eg. bishops, councils, scholars, teachers, preachers, etc). Clearly those who are biased in favor of this or that church or denomination or theological system are incapable of serving the Word of God in any truly adequate manner (as they are far too busy serving lesser things to do justice to the scriptures).
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> How do we have this understanding of the word of God that we may be filled with the Spirit?
> The answer can be found in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians in chapter 14:
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> 14:1-3 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
> For anyone who speaks in tongues does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands
> him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their
> strengthening, encouragement and comfort.
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 Here we see that prophecy is the very opposite of tongues. Thus while tongues is an essentially useless and senseless exercise, prophecy proceeds on the basis of sound and sensible communication. Thus the prophet is - first and last - a communicator ...
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> The gift of prophecy can be had by all
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 That's not what Paul says. He is quite clear in teaching that not all are called to be apostles, prophets, and teachers, but only those chosen by the Spirit.
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> and is used to strengthen faith, encourage good works and comfort the weary in heart.
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 "to strengthen faith" also means to protect and defend it from all heretics and deceivers who would corrupt the Faith to their own benefit. Thus the prophet is also an apologist who clarifies and explains what the Faith involves and implies.
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> As a matter of fact, all the vocal gifts: prophecy, tongues, and interpretation of
> tongues can be received by all.
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 Nonsense. Prophecy is a very specific and demanding ministry that is given only to a very few. Clearly not all believers are qualified or capable of being prophets in the fullest sense of the word. However, all believers can and should practice whatever prophetic charisms they are capable of; (eg. encouraging good works, and comforting others, is something that all can do to some extent). As for tongues, this practice is irrelevant, pointless, and fruitless; and in no way on a par with the necessity of prophecy. Thus the churches can get by just fine without the foolishness of tongues, but without prophets we become superstitious and ignorant Catholics (ie. servants of Satan).
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> A message in tongues followed by an interpretation of the tongue is equivalent to a message
> given by the gift of prophecy:
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 They are NOT equivalent in any way, shape, or form!
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> 14:4 He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,
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 Obviously Paulos and I are in full agreement on this point.
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> unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. The gift of tongues edifies the
> speaker alone but the gift of prophecy edifies all. Notice the person who speaks in
> tongues here has the interpretation.
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 Who cares? Tongues is a very small and very minor thing; and of no real consequence in any case.
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> Many Christians reading this chapter do not notice the change in context. Paul first speaks about the
> gift of prophecy for all believers used for strengthening faith, encouraging good works and comforting
> the weary in heart. Notice that there is no instructional element in this usage. <snipsome>
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 Obviously it is implied in all three of these activities.
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> However, the gifts also manifest at a greater level that can be used for instructional purposes.
> <snipsome>
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 As I just said.
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> A pastor has three gifts at the greater level: interpretations, discerning and healings.
> A pastor is a shepherd ... <snipsome>
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 A pastor is not a prophet, and so is irrelevant to this discussion.
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> An evangelist has three gifts at the greater level: tongues, the word of wisdom and miracles.
> <snipsome>
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 An evangelist is also not a prophet, and so is also irrelevant to this discussion.
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> Now we get to the prophets:
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 And it's about time, too!  :)
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> 14:29-30 Two or three prophets should speak and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
> And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you
> can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of the
> prophets are subject to the control of the prophets.
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 Here we see that the only ones who have authority over a prophet are other prophets! This is an important point to bear in mind when you consider that most Christians today fancy that the bishop is the highest authority over all.
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> Prophets have three gifts at the greater level: prophecy, the word of knowledge and [great] faith.
> Prophecy at a greater level is prophetic teaching.
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 The prophet is distinguished from the ordinary teacher in that his teachings have the full authority and power of the Holy Spirit within them. This is how you can tell the two apart. If someone claims to be a prophet, and yet his words lack power and conviction, then that man is not a prophet at all. Thus the prophet always teaches with authority, and NOT like the scribes, scholars, and priests.
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> Not only is the teaching instructional, but it will be a teaching that someone needs at the time.
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 It does not have to be someone at all. Since the needs of the People of God as a whole outweigh the needs of this or that individual, it is the needs of the churches that will occupy the bulk of the prophet's attention.
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> The teaching should also reveal great insight that cannot be gained by mere study alone. The
> Holy Scriptures is a large collection of works and a prophet is given a message that can span
> many passages synthesised in concise and authoritative form. The message through the gift
> of prophecy is in agreement with the word of knowledge that gives certainty of information,
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 In other words, the prophet is also a biblical scientist and scholar and scribe; to the end that these disciplines are essential to the greater ministry involving the interpretation of scripture (as it applies to the current problems and concerns of the various churches).
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> often of a predictive nature;
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 I disagree. Predicting the future is less a job for prophets, and more a job for sooth-sayers, clairvoyants, and fortune-tellers.
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> but primarily it provides that great insight and understanding of doctrine.
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 The prophet offers the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!
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> The gift of faith, is great faith to perform what is impossible in man's mind. It is the faith of
> Jesus our Lord who upholds that prophet in the moment of utterance. A prophet well trained
> in the Word and dedicated to a life of holiness can speak into the spiritual realm, breaking
> the bonds over nations or causing judgement over nations.
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 This is true enough. The cyber-prophet has certainly judged this good nation of Canada. He judges it to be wholly corrupt, spiritually dead, and fundamentally anti-christ; such that Canada is the foremost nation in the service of the Wicked One.
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> The gift of faith can be activated by God to raise a spirit and its soul from the grave or from the sleep in
> Christ. However, resurrection is only achieved with all nine gifts operational at the greater level because
> extensive healings or miracles are required to restore the body as well.
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 Healing is not a requirement for prophets. That is a another special ministry all its own, suitable to those called to it (just as doctors are not also lawyers).
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> Prophets judge other prophets and every church should have at least two prophets! <snip-remainder>
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 If there be even just two prophets in the entire world today, I should be very much surprised to hear it. As far as I am aware, there is only one true prophet living and working at the present time; and he can only be found in cyber-space!

/ Topic > Re: does the bible rule out a new prophet? / Newsgroup > alt.bible.prophecy / Date > 29 Feb 2000 /
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> On 24Feb00 olebaldy1 wrote: What does the question pertain to?
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 erasmian answers: Dear olebaldy1, it pertains to the sad fact that Christians today are horribly ignorant about prophecy and prophets.
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> What did prophets of old do? <snipsome>
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 They did *many* things; but most of all they told the truths that people did NOT want to hear!
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> No new revelation is forthcoming except from God Himself on judgment day: Sometime in the future.
> Does this make me a prophet?
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 No, I'm afraid not, olebaldy1. You see, prophets tell the truth of things (eg. their main purpose today is to interpret the scriptures); and that's something that you haven't done in your post. Telling the future is something that soothsayers, fortune-tellers, astrologers, and tea-cup readers do. Prophecy is NOT about future events; it *IS* about the present corrupt & desolate spiritual situation of the World.
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 Moreover, who are you to say that "No new revelation is forthcoming", eh? If the Lord decides to send this wicked generation a prophet (perhaps only a second-rate prophet), you will be the first to stand up and tell him "NO!"?
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 Foolish indeed are those who suppose that all the prophets are long since dead and gone. Even more foolish are those who fancy that we no longer need them ... Well, we have priests and bishops and even an infallable paper-pope now, don't we? ... So what need have we for the truth of things?!
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 Yes, the current popular (and dismal) ignorance about the prophets is all the proof we need to demonstrate that Christians today are *very* sorely in need of the prophetic ministry. But first they have to do something about their willful blindness!

/ Re: does the bible rule out a new prophet? / 2March2000 / Ngz: alt.bible.prophecy, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy /

> On 1Mar00 Ginger McFayden, not being overly impressed with the cyber-prophet's rantings, wrote:
> Joel 2:28 & Acts 2:17 : "And it shall come to pass in the last days, Saith the God, I will pour out my Spirit
> upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions,
> and your old men shall dream dreams"  --  Ginger
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 erasmian answers: Dear Ginger, since you offer this text without the necessary interpretation and/or explanation, it is quite impossible to discern what point you intend to make with it. Does the presence of the cyber-prophet mean that these are the 'last days'? I certainly don't think so, since I see prophets in each and every one of the last 20 centuries. On the other hand, this quote could be taken to imply that there *cannot* be any prophets *until* the last days; but this interpretation is hardly biblical, since Luke applies it to the first century CE (ie. 20 centuries ago)! Surely you are not foolish enough to suggest that the last days began 2000 years ago and are still going strong? That would be pushing a good idea just a little bit too far, I think.
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 So in what way does this Joel bible-byte relate to the question posed by our header? My view is that Joel's vision concerns the end times (ie. sometime in the distant future), but does NOT rule out the necessity and activity of prophets in the meanwhile. This being so, it is clear that Luke's interpretation is somewhat misguided (since the first century CE was *obviously* not the dreaded "last days").
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 So where does all this leave us? It leaves us with the New Testament, where we see that the last books to be written (in first half of the second century) were composed by the Christian prophets of Egypt (ie. James, Jude, 2Peter). Since the prophetic tradition of Egypt continued up to the time of Origen (where it reaches the pinnacle and thereafter declines), it is clear that prophecy and prophets are a necessary and perennial element of the authentic faith of the early Greek churches.
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 Obviously, then, the bible does NOT rule out a new prophet; but, in fact, *explicitly* demands an ongoing prophetic ministry:
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 Now to the one [ie. the prophet] who is able to guard you without stumbling, and sets before you the glory of Him-blameless-with-exultation (and the only God, our Savior; through Jesus Christ our Lord), let that one [ie. the prophet] be given glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all the Age (now and unto all the ages to come). Amen!  -- Jude 1:24-25 / Prophet Version
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 btw: If you take exception with my translation of these verses, and much prefer the distorted and pious translations offered by all the popular English versions (made by translators who wouldn't recognize prophetic language if it jumped up and bit their fat, furry buttocks), then I humbly suggest that you *carefully* examine the Greek text directly, and *then* tell me that those grossly inadequate translations are better than my own!

/ Re: does the bible rule out a new prophet? / 4March2000 / Ng: alt.bible.prophecy, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy /
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> On 3Mar00 Ginger McFayden replied: Erasmian, Regardless of what I say,
> will not matter not to you or anyone.
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 erasmian sayeth: Dear Ginger, oh please don't say that! What you say certainly DOES matter; both to me and many others. If I thought that my efforts in these bible-study ngz made no difference to (at least) some few faithful cyber-saints, then there would be little point in participating in these Usenet discussions at all.
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> Not trying to please you.
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 If you're trying to the please the Lord, then you're certainly pleasing me also ...  :)
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> The header is as stated.
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 It is?
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> Just added my opinion by stating the obvious: Young men will dream dreams, Old men
> will have visions, and young men and daughters will prophecy.
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 You see a lot of this going on these days, do you?
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> Surely, it is self-explanatory
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 Any bible-byte that is summarily ripped from its proper context and presented as some sort of proof-text is anything but self-explanatory; especially when dealing with prophetic literature.
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> and need I say anything further?
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 Yes, indeed you do!
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> But, to please you, it is stated as such.
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 Hmmm ... ???
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> New prophet?
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 Is the use of the singular significant?
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> Only that God will give unto us these visions and dreams.
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 Yeah, but when? ... Joel attaches all these events to a specific time-frame (namely, during 'the last days'). You can't just ignore that aspect of the prophecy, Ginger.
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> We must be careful in these days
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 Is there something special about "these days"?
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> to whom we place our faith.
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 True Believers always take great care to place their trust & faith in the only one who really matters: our good Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
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> There are many false prophets and dreamers of dreams.
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 And it has been this way since the very beginnings of the Faith (as the sacred scriptures often testify). 4X: "The prophets prophesy lies. The priests exercise power by their own authority. And my people love to have it that way. But what will you do when the end comes?" -- Jeremiah 5:31/NETbible
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> I need not explain more.
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 O yes you do!
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> For you will believe yourself over others.
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 Usually, yes; but not always ...
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> Very careful guy you are!
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 'Very careful in my scholarly endeavors', I hope you mean!  :)
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> As you put it: you are the one who despises piss-poor translations.
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 Well, we should all despise piss-poor translations. It's the only way to motivate bible-makers & bible-translators to do a better job of it!
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> I will not translate for you, for you will make anything I say of nought,
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 You ought not to knot the naught!
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> you know too much
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 I'm a long way from knowing too much, I think.
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> and will listen to nothing.
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 I'm listening very carefully to all the posters I answer, Ginger.
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> As I stated: I am not trying to please you.
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 I believe you already!
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> I should say, I am only sharing the word.
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 Share also your thoughts on the Word.
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> If I am wrong, I will hear you. But, I cannot teach you.
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 They who teach must always be willing and able to learn; for how can anyone say that they have mastered *all* that the scriptures contain?
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> I will say, Bless you in all your endeavors.
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 Thx, Ginger. You're far too kind ... Really!
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> May the Father allow you greater understanding in matters of wisdom.
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 That is also my most fervent prayer! :)
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> -- In Christ!  Amen!!!! -- Ginger
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 So you're saying that the bible doesn't rule out a new prophet, right? So then we are most certainly agreed upon the essentials. It's the separating apart of true and false prophets that's the tricky part ...